Air Bubbles sticking to new Paterson System 4 reels

Local time
5:29 PM
Joined
Aug 1, 2007
Messages
16
Hi

Hope someone here can help.
I got some new Paterson reels, but even in soft demineralized water, the bubbles clinges to the reels for their dear life. Even 5 hard taps, almost smashing the tank into the table, doesn't help.

Any suggestions, beside switching to stainless steel ;o)

thank you in advance.

Michael
 

Attachments

  • IMG_4908B.jpg
    IMG_4908B.jpg
    53.4 KB · Views: 0
If brand new have you cleaned them beforehand... I always have given a warm soapy water and old toothbrush type clean and run something around the spiral edge to remove any sharpness
 
Hi, thank you for your suggestions.

Yes, I cleaned them before first use (soap & tooth brush), and have used them about 10 times, with a good clean after each use with how water and a toothbrush.

We don't have Formula 409 here in Denmark, is it based on chlorine? Like a bleach?

Rgds
Michael
 
Last edited:
Do you have any *old* Paterson reels, or can you borrow one from someone? If an old one does not have the problem *in your darkroom, with your water and chemicals", the problem is (obviously) with the new reels.

I have an unused Paterson reel as well as several older, well-used ones. The "new" one (I have no idea when I bought it) is slightly different: It is, of course, not yellowed with use. The little ball-bearing is held in place differently (merely snaps into place in the new version). The radial ribs is narrower, and one says "Paterson" on it. The old ribs have shallow V-shaped channels or grooves on the outside, one per rib. (I have no idea what they are/were for.) Visually and by touch the material and general finish seem to be the same. It does not seem to have any manufacturing residue, but if I thought it did I would wash it as you did, and then wash it again with some other mild chemicals: rubbing alcohol, TSP (tri-sodium-phosphate), acetic acid (vinegar). . . After all of that, if you still have those sticky bubbles with plain water you might try a wetting agent, just to see what happens.

Back in the late 1970's photographers were often advised *not* to use PhotoFlow in film development tanks or with reels because it was difficult to completely rinse off and could affect sensitive developers the next time you used the equipment. That may have been an urban myth, though. Edwal produced LFN for the express purpose of reducing any possible interaction with developers, hence the initials: L(ow) F(oam) N(on-ionic) wetting agent. Whether it works as intended was disputed 40 years ago, and a check of web discussions shows that people still disagree. It might be worth a try, though. I would first try it in the pre-soak step, 1 or 2 drops per litre.

Kodak's HC110 developer could be awfully foamy, but I could avoid problems by always presoaking the film (1-2 minutes), pouring solutions in carefully (think of pouring beer), rapping the tank at an angle, and spinning the reels back and forth a couple times (if I hadn't misplaced the Paterson spin-thingy!). It also helped to have an enough solution to leave only a small air space for agitation (not too much, not too little).

Good luck!

BTW, do you get bubbles with all of your processing chemicals? That is, are bubbles a problem every time you pour in a new solution?
 
Do the bubbles form with each step?

Try a reel with no film. Keep tank cap off. See if the bubbles form with the film developer in the tank. Then stop bath, if you use it. Then fixer. Then water for rinse. If the bubbles form with each chemical I'd guess it's something on the reels. Only form with one of the chemicals, then something in the chemical.

As has been suggested, try photo flo or nothing at all and see what happens.

Just try each item seperately to figure out what to eliminate and what could be the cause(s).

Can't find a solution then maybe try sending an email to Paterson.
 
I could try that, I guess diluted? I am by the way using a wetting agent (either stab/c41 or Mirasol for B&W)

Photoflow is the one I know. So yes, diluted, maybe a lot stronger than a mix for film. I'm not familiar with the E6 or C41 products. All my color film processing was done with Kodak kits when I needed film done faster than the local labs could provide. But, try them, any wetting agent should work or not work.. binary. You don't want bubbles in your processing.

Beyond that, go to metal tanks and reels. I've been using them for years with no issues. Loading is a learning process, but made easy in daylight training with an old or cheap roll of unprocessed film. 220 was most difficult, 135 is quickly learnable.

Good luck.
 
A follow up.

My old reels, and a friends reels, do not have this problem in the same water/liquids. So it is the reels, which have a problem.

The air bubbles sticks to the reels in all liquids.

I tested adding Mirasol (wetting agent), and 6 drops pr 500ml, combined with 5-6 hard dunks of the tank on table, and 10 raps on the sides/bottom of the tank with a spatula, dislodges the bubbles 8 out of 10 times. The last two, some bubbles didn't disappear. This process is not right, and I think it is a manufacturing issues/defect. I've written the seller, I'll see what they say.

Also, I cleaned the reels like a million times now, using everything from vinegar with dish wash. water and baking powder (creates a good foam) to old C41 developer, BLIX and STAB (soaked in each for hours) to try to "season" the reels to the chemicals. Nothing has helped.

I'm staring to feel a little annoyed, Patersonused to be a reliable brand, but other seems to have had the same problem, without any reliable solution.

Rgds
Michael
 
don't use bleach/chlorine on plastic, it eventually degrades it, abrades it, and the result is no longer smooth , but a "pitted" surface.
 
Stainless Steel

I did say in the original post; "Any suggestions, beside switching to stainless steel ;o)" – hehe

I would like to go stainless steel, and I'm trying to find some here in Europe/EU, since the duties, taxes and fees when importing them form overseas makes them prohibitively expensive. I have practised with a friends ss reels, and I have no problem loading them with 120 film.
 
I did say in the original post; "Any suggestions, beside switching to stainless steel ;o)" – hehe

I would like to go stainless steel, and I'm trying to find some here in Europe/EU, since the duties, taxes and fees when importing them form overseas makes them prohibitively expensive. I have practised with a friends ss reels, and I have no problem loading them with 120 film.

I think Calumet sell stainless steel tanks.

Edit: oops sorry not sure about 120
 
Last edited:
I know people love the Paterson system, but air bubbles, more chemistry, just didn't seem like a good compromise. I used Paterson when they first came out. After a few ruined rolls of film, I sold them all and switched to stainless. The air bubbles were impossible to get rid of. Stainless reels and tanks are easier to clean, the tanks use less developer etc.. Get a practice roll of film, maybe one of the ones that were ruin by air bubbles, and in no time you'll be able to master loading film on to the reels.
 
I know people love the Paterson system, but air bubbles, more chemistry, just didn't seem like a good compromise. I used Paterson when they first came out. After a few ruined rolls of film, I sold them all and switched to stainless. The air bubbles were impossible to get rid of. Stainless reels and tanks are easier to clean, the tanks use less developer etc.. Get a practice roll of film, maybe one of the ones that were ruin by air bubbles, and in no time you'll be able to master loading film on to the reels.

Can't find stainless steel at a reasonable price, since they have to be shipped from the US or Asia, and the import duties, taxes and fees in Denmark are crazy.

Most likely I'll order JOBO, have had it with these reels.

Rgds
Michael
 
Back
Top Bottom