All my Kiev are Dead!

[ruben]

Hi Jay,

You could notice as well that I opened my post #19 with the following sentences:


"I don't quite follow you here.
If you are saying that you are trying the non-Arsenal ribbons resistance within a non working Kiev, this is one thing.
But if you are saying that after installing the ribbons on a user camera you will give it to an assistant to wind and fire it 500 continuous times or more - this is a proceeding I will not do unless my name is Henry Scherer."




Now, this exchanges between you and me are becomming bitter and bitter.

In part, I have to admit, I am not the most tolerant folk to talk with, when the Kievs are questioned about their very exixtance. Therefore I apologize for any gross or subtle insinuation I may have thrown over you.

This non-tolerance is also unproductive from my own interest. Every one will earn more if I size such opportunities to explain the Kiev ABCs' time and again.

On the other hand, you, being a well reckognized conossieur of Zorki/Feds, are not succeding with the Kievs and instead of accepting that you are doing something wrong, to be further investigated, you have adopted the curious stance that if YOU cannot have the Kievs work, this only proves the low quality of the Kievs.

This stance is absolutely ridiculous, to say the least. Because the fact is that many folks have their Kievs working. Among them many which their Kievs never went even a miserable CLA. Facts are stubborn things.

"All my Kievs are dead" - I understand that the folk who never opened a Kiev may be impressed. Specially if he has bought one or more problematic Kievs, found in plenty for cheap.

But those of us who dis-assemble Kievs, and have broght them to top quality levels of work, we don't know an unfixable Kiev, or an unreliable one, nor have the slightest idea what is a "dead Kiev". My own two daily user Kievs are the lowest quality among the line up: the Kiev 4AM. They will outlast my own life. All other Kievs I have, are just waiting for the day I become bored with the 4AM model. Two - three days of CLA and every one will be on top level worth of u$ 350. "All my Kievs dead" - who do you think you are kidding, beyond sorrowfully kidding yourself ?

You can launch all the threats you want, like "this is the last time", or even skip this phase and sign our friend sitemistic on any public petition, or start more threads blaming the Kievs for every sin on Earth, but you are nothing less than adopting a ridiculous stance. So ridiculous that I will not further interfere.

How have you come to such a stance ? By simple and plain pride blinding you from accepting that even you have some things new to learn when dealing with Kievs. In this context I have to remind the reader that not long ago I offered you to CLA one of your Kievs in exchange of you CLAing one of my Feds-2. From the point of view of working hours, my offer was more than a bargain for you.

I like the Feds-2, specially their collapsible lens and the handy diopter lever, both found in other Feds and Zorkis. But since being invested heavily in Kievs, Feds are not the camera I will use, with all due respect. And I do respect them. I am also afraid of myself that once starting with the Leica mount I will start spending in lenses without control. Yet I thought I could use a Jay CLAed Fed-2 occasionally. From my viewpoint, the CLA exchange proposal was a sincere generous offer

I don't know what you had in mind when you rejected the offer, but ceirtainly not an extreme curiousity about what this guy (Ruben) is talking so loudly about Kiev potential quality. Very very strange, for a gear minded person shouting "All my Kievs Dead !"

Incidentally the Fed I wanted to send you for CLA was bought from Oleg, not because I was desperate for a Fed, but because I wanted to learn his work. And I did learn a lot from that Fed. By the same coin, I started a very amicable talk with Henry Scherer to buy a Contax from him, for the same reason and despite my Kievs working at very high quality levels. (Of course the purchase failed once Henry notifyied me I should enter his waiting list).

I am not a Kiev big shot. And obviously for everyone I know the inners of the Kievs much much less than you know the inners of the Feds and Zorkis. I could never know what I do know, without the starting help of the KSS. I am not a big photographer too, nor a big shot in anything. I am simple person. But I am not stupid either. If I have learnt anything in life is that I will be a perpetuous pupil of every aspect of life till the day I die. Through my short life I have seen the impossible becomming possible and vice versa.

But you Jay, in direct inverse to Feds and Zorkis, will never fix a Kiev unless you overcome your self, i.e. your pride.

Cheers,
Ruben

Latter addendum,
On behalf of being crystal clear to the reader, when I have written here :

But those of us who dis-assemble Kievs, and have broght them to top quality levels of work, we don't know an unfixable Kiev, or an unreliable one, nor have the slightest idea what is a "dead Kiev".

I didn't mean that the ribbons will never break once in a decade or two, nor that the rangefiding alignment will last in place for years, etc. I only meant that all Kiev issues that may appear long after a home CLA (home = exhaustive) will be easily fixable, any part needing to be replaced will be replaced, and our Kiev will continue to work.

 

[zhang xk]

Comrade Zhang

My assistant had nothing to do for most of the afternoon...no scheduled shoots, so I asked him to fire the shutter casually whilst watching TV The 500 or so actuations is really an estimate. At the rate of about 4-6 winding and firing sequences per minute, he stopped just about midway through the second feature in HBO.

This procedure - firing the shutter continously at a steady, gentle rate- is a modification of one tip Rick Oleson suggested to me a few years ago- that is to exercise and break-in ribbons through a hundred or so firings.

I know what you mean with Kiev 88. Their knobs are notoriously heavy to turn.
What did you do to your K-88? A friend used to do wonders with this camera. We even replaced the original steel-foil shutters with the DIY shutter cloth I used for FED and Zorki. We've been told that it wouldn't work. 7 years later, these modified Kiev 88 shutters still work.

Jay

Jay

Hi Comrade Jay,

I didn't use the Kiev 88 for much phtographing, but used it as an objective for practising my camera repair skill. I think I finally made a relatively reliable camera without 1/2-1/15 slow speeds.:bang: I believe that the camera should be re-designed to make it a real reliable camera. I believe that is why Hassylbald abandoned the original 1000F series.

Both Kiev 88 and Kiev rangefinder(Contax II) are complex cameras, but IMO, a Kiev rangefinder has only one weak(?) point that is the shutter ribbons. I heard from somewhere ,but I forgot where that Contax has to use a very special silk material for the ribbons.

Cheers,

Zhang

 

[ZorkiKat]

Ruben

How ridiculous! That was so presumptuous of you.

You say, "Facts are stubborn things". But the impression (one of many about you) you gave me is that facts can only be so if they happen to be on the same side of the fence as you are.

First, what is wrong with saying "All my Kiev are Dead" when in fact they are? What else do you call cameras wlith non-functional shutters?What else do you say when your KIEV, in fact, have become non-functional with dead shutters? Wouldn't that be a fact?

Second, you said that the Aki-Asahi ribbons were 'rejected' at the Kiev site. You said that they won't fit. But those are not facts. Instead the facts are:

(1) they were not specifically rejected at all;

(2) by saying so, you don't know what the AA ribbons are;

(3) the AA ribbons work in the Kiev shutter and kept their integrity after more than 600 actuations.

Third Non-Fact: you say that I rejected your "generous" offer of FED/Kiev CLA exchange because of pride.

FACT#1: I said it's not worth doing.

FACT #2:Receiving cameras here is relatively easy. But sending them out of the country is not. That involves a lot of paperwork, bureaucratic red tape, and 'extra' charges on top of the shipping cost. Mailing cameras out the country here is more expensive than anywhere else (about $150). The FED/Kiev CLA exchange would require me to send out cameras twice, first my Kiev, then your FED after CLA. That cost, plus the cost of my effort in working on a FED (-why do you presume that your Kiev effort will cost more than what I would do on a FED?) makes your proposal unfeasible. I've had repair requests before from abroad which I declinedfor this reason. Why should I accept any now? Again one fact from the other side of the fence which you refuse to consider.

Fourth Glaring FACTUAL ERROR: "simple and plain pride blinding you from accepting that even you have some things new to learn when dealing with Kievs".

Fact#1: Isn't what I'm doing -such as finding other ribbon substitutes- an effort at learning something new? Isn't testing that ribbon a process of learning and discovery?

Fact #2: Rejecting outright the possibility of other "paths" which lead to to the same goal because they don't conform with your notions is blinding pride.


Fifth Factual Distortion:: "Very very strange, for a gear minded person shouting "All my Kievs Dead !"

Fact#1 I do not consider myself gear minded. My efforts at restoration and repair is only a way to a more relevant goal: cameras as working tools.

Fact#2 I would rather spend my time shooting with cameras than repairing them. If one goes bad, I feel compelled to restore them back to working status.

Sixth Misquoted Non-Fact: "You can launch all the threats you want, like "this is the last time"..."

Fact 1: A "threat"? Not so. It's a plain factual statement.

Fact 2 "One more try" is what I said. Not "this is the last time". One more try because I have a life. I don't see myself servicing machines with potential reliability issues all the time. One more try to see if these reliability issues can be resolved. If not, then time to move on and do something more relevant. Like using the cameras to shoot life as it passes before it's lost.

Seventh Assumption: "we don't know an unfixable Kiev, or an unreliable one, nor have the slightest idea what is a "dead Kiev". "

Fact 1: On the other hand, there are those of who have encountered unfixable Kievs with congenital factory defects and met a few ones which were so easy to fix. Those of who have been compromised and lost pictures because of a shutter strap suddenly breaking at the least opportune time know exactly what a dead Kiev is. Those who have persisted and hoped by getting a replacement Kiev for every one which breaks but instead adds another one to the casualty list knows what a dead Kieve is. Those who have despaired after realising that their precision machine can not be easily fixed know what a Dead Kiev is.

Fact 2: The opinions of those on the other side, and whose observations differ radically from those remain facts even if they are not accepted or ridiculed by those " those of us who dis-assemble Kievs".

A word of advise to you Ruben: Before you describe people whom you do not know and paint a public picture of them, check your facts first. You do not make a good picture of yourself as well when you publicly describe people based on malicious and erroneous assumptions. You accuse me of 'pride', but the post you made reeks of it. As dangerous as pride would be unfounded fear and ignorance. Try to avoid them as well.

Your reaction is so typical of a person whose pride was hurt. Hurt after realising that he was wrong but refuses to acknowledge it (the AkiAsahi ribbon for instance). Hurt from the false fear that his person is being attacked by criticism of what he believes he is standing for- isn;t that what you perceive when someone says something bad about the Kiev? That also speaks of paranoia. You automatically assume that anyone who notes a Kiev defect is after you or your beloved cameras. I or anyone who find these defects bothersome are not out to get you, Ruben. But this seems to elicit a defencive reaction from you.

What you know, and believe to know are fine. But these do not change the fact that some of us are having reliability problems with Kiev cameras. Not all of us have the time or can afford to exert the effort necessary to bring these cameras up to par with the other cameras which are so easily serviced to be dependable tools. No question about the sincere attempts of Kiev (as well as its followers) to make a precision, clock like camera, but there are just some of us who'd rather do other things with our time. If we get turned off with the notion that reliability in Kiev requires 10x the effort and 20X more than the time needed to bring to about the same reliable standards as other cameras do, we do because we are just being practical. That's not pride.



Your skills with the Kiev is admirable, but sadly, the way you read people is not. You assume too much..

 

[ZorkiKat]

Hi Comrade Jay,

I. I heard from somewhere ,but I forgot where that Contax has to use a very special silk material for the ribbons.

Cheers,

Zhang

Comrade Zhang

Maizenberg stated that the ribbon must be of a certain width and thickness.
The Aki-Asahi ribbons fit this requirement.

I suspect that the Aki Asahi ribbon may be 'habutae' silk. That's very tough silk!''

Hat

 

[wolves3012]

Ruben, Jay,

Please be nice to each other! I have much respect for both of you and don't like to see fighting. It does not reflect well on either of you to exchange posts like this. Sorry but I had to say that.

Ruben:
Jay's original post stated that all his Kievs were dead, surely you can accept that it can be true without leaping to the Kiev defence? The complexity of the Kiev that makes it a fine camera when working is also its Achilles-heel. If it breaks then most owners do not have the desire or ability to repair it and the cost of a professional repair can not usually be justified based on the camera's value. Ribbons appear to be a weak-spot on the Kiev, Jay is trying to see if that can be mitigated.

Jay:
When you rejected Ruben's offer of a return-CLA you might have made it clearer why it was not worth it. I don't wish to criticise negatively but it could be mis-read by one as keen as Ruben that you just couldn't be bothered because the Kiev isn't worth it - not for financial reasons but for merit reasons.

Please be friends on here, we all share the enthusiasm for the FSU cameras so let's help each other.

 

[gb hill]

Ruben, Jay,

Please be nice to each other! I have much respect for both of you and don't like to see fighting. It does not reflect well on either of you to exchange posts like this. Sorry but I had to say that.

I'm sorry but Jay wasn't rude at all. Saying that all his Kiev's were dead was a fact. If a camera is nonfunctional then it's dead IMO. What I got out of reading the thread was Jay sharing how he planned to resurrect the camera. MOF when my Fed 2's shutter curtains started to stick @ 60, Jays S Site is the only site that I have read that mentions the s s set on 60 is the most likely at fault. Then following the sticky on how to adjust the tension of the curtains, my FED works as smooth as a new one. I don't understand why Ruben thinks that a camera needs to be torn completely down every time something breaks & a simple fix is at hand. Like Jay I want to be out using my cameras than working on one all the time. But I will say it's nice to have people like Jay & Ruben around to offer help when one bites the dust.

 

[robbiechad]

I think this discussion has got a bit heated, shame, I think Jay is doing a good job testing those ribbons. I,m confident he will be proved to be on the track of an alternative source for Kiev ribbons, so much so I have ordered some from AA. Regards to everyone

 

[wolves3012]

I'm sorry but Jay wasn't rude at all.

And I didn't say he was. Merely a comment that he perhaps didn't explain well enough why the CLA-exchange wasn't worth it; someone with Ruben's enthusiasm could read it the wrong way.

 

[ruben]

Hi folks,

After learning, making up my mind and explaining it in my last post #22, I don't have any hard feelings towards Jay. He is not my enemy, nor of course I will be chasing him at threads about Kievs, nor anything else.

Take into account, from the practical point of view, that many folks have invested a lot of time/efforts in making the Kievs work to high standards. I don't think at all I myself have been the pionering one here, this is a hard fact. But all these efforts, in view of the results, and my daily experience, deserve to be defended.

And for new prospective Kiev owners, there is also an issue of money investing.

From my part my argumentation has not been centered on ribbons or screws. It has been about the question if the Kievs after home CLA can be reliable cameras or not. Given that this is what Jay is doing, and without contradicting myself, I wish him, after all, to succeed.

One thing is to say the Kievs demand from me too much time - this is not practical for most of us, a problem I am very much aware of, and I still have the hope to make things easier by resuming "The Kiev Project".

But since he started his thread "Kievs - unlucky cameras..." Jay was saying something totally different, till my post #22 here.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[nzeeman]

i dont know what is happening on rff - what are these argues from nowhere. i think that there are some people here who get offended by whatever ruben write. i dont know why - he is always so polite and only try to help - and then always someone jumps on him. please people if you dont want to help - dont attack people who help. if you dont like something in the thread just close it.

 

[ruben]

Hi Marc,
Many thanks for your symphaty. However it is true that in some threads I have been agressive.

In this one, my post #22 was hard, and hard for me too to have to write it. It is not the nicest thing to throw on the face of a member the assertion I have thrown.

My only hope is that while being hard, I have not been rude. If any member finds I have been rude, my PM box is wide open, and I will deal within my best possible spirit.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[btgc]

Ruben, I don't want to jump into this conversation, but I abolutely love your style of online presence. You act and "talk" like beeing in room with your peers, yet demonstrate quite a flexibility - great !

 

[nzeeman]

Hi Marc,

hahah im not marc - that is leftover in my signature from contest Marc A. started. My name is Srdjan.

 

[ruben]

I think it`s just a matter of miscommunication and misunderstanding. ............... However if Ruben had written his later explanation in an earlier reply the thread might not have escalated to the point it did.

Ruben`s later words:

"One thing is to say the Kievs demand from me too much time - this is not practical for most of us, a problem I am very much aware of "

John

Hi John,

There is a master Contax repairman, whose name is Henry Scherer, perhaps the most venerated in this brand, whose prices are (I don't remember exactly) about $250 for a full overhaul.

Since he dismantles the camera to the smallest screw, cleans, lubricates and re-assembles - and all these with a master hand - I think he is severily underpricing his work, in order to keep it. On the other hand he may have intelligent developed ways, tools, and great experience speeding his work.

He has a waiting list of more than a year, and a full system for you to follow your turn.

These are the basic cameras we are dealing with. Or perhaps I may say that the younger the Kiev, the more work you have in front.

But because it is a very complex and time predator camera, to paint it as a failure - this is more than ridiculous. To paint it as unconvenient for many - this makes sense since as you yourself said (and I accepted) not every one has free time enough.

But we both know what advantages a Kiev or a Contax may have, on the other hand, making the time investment in fixing or overhauling - quite an interesting question.

What the Kievs have to offer ME, taking into account I do disassemble and overhaul myself?

a) One of the most sophysticated focusing systems ever. And I am not talking just about the long baselength. There is also the 270 degrees focusing wheel, plus the small focusing wheel multiplying this per 4 times, the highly contrasty viewfinder with a yellow patch bright like a sun and very big, making accurate and fast focus a kid's play.

About the use of the small focusing wheel many folks have testifyied it enables them to focus and fire with a single hand. I have added a post about its use in improving the focusing of the lens after using lens rotation. But I have more news I am going to write about very soon.

b) Top of the top quiet shutter. Let me here be crystal clear and accurate. I don't know all the cameras ever, of course, but to the extent of my knowledge only 2 cameras with IN BETWEEN THE LENS LEAF shutters are more quieter: the Oly RC, and the Electros G series (the big old ones, since the smaller GX is much noisy).

In the way our Kievs have left behind many many many other leaf shutter cameras. But the Kiev is not a leaf shutter camera. It defeats its rivals being a massive curtains shutter camera, a task for which the shutter is of high sophystication.

But I would like to pose here two significative cases. A simple Fed-2 bought from eBay, produced me a noise like an OM1 slr. After learning that Feds can be "silenced", I bought one from Oleg, asking him to silence it and offering an extra for the job. In terms of noise the Oleg Fed 2 surpasses Mike Goldberg's Leica M2. It is a bit more silent (Oleg's Fed).

Yet I must keep here two reservations. First, I don't know at all the Leica line-up, and of course not the Leica line-up from quieter to noiser, relatively to Leicas. Secondly, I don't know when Mike's M2 was last serviced.

But what I can state for sure is that my user Kievs with still expanding grease and oil are much more silent than Oleg's silenced Fed-2. How much more silent ? I would say around a third of the noise the Oleg Fed-2 makes.

Now, following Murphy Law a beach boy surfer must jump saying "what I need it for ?", and I will answer him concretely. Yesterday within a half empty bus at night I was able to capture a boy very self focused seating right in front of me, 1 meter, during a moment the bus stopped.

We always like to say "what I need it for ?", except for a single type of instances in our lifes: when we buy. Then ohohooo, we want this and this and this, otherwise it is an useless camera.

c) The lenses.

d) The Soviet Universal Turret Finder, which improved the original Contax one (I have both), the amazing 35mm finder, the dirty cheap and luxurious FULL cases of the Kiev 2/3 and 4/4a.

e) Once one masters the basic Kiev disassembly and CLA, a self study for which you don't need any knowledge of electronics, the price/convenience ratio of the camera and accessories becomes surpassable in its price by another FSU competitor only.

f) Something some of us have in common, not every one: an extreme atraction to the beauty contours of the camera. Since being myself a person working long hours and always short of time, it took me some years to discover the distension issue and the full shutter disassemble. Along those years I bought all possible substitue for the Kievs I thought I could compromise for, and by pairs and more.

But there was a factor gravitating me all the time towards the Kievs, and it kept me in its orbit: the external beauty of the camera.

. . . . . .

So let's conclude, by nowadays film parameters: are the Kievs a pro level camera ? I don't think so. A pro level film camera, nowadays, must include two features and have them quite at high level: Auto Focus, and Auto Exposure.
The Kievs don't have them, as well as many Leicas. The new Zeiss Ikon is accordingly in the middle.

But if you argue that these two features don't make by themselves a pro-level camera, then the Kievs, IF CORRECTLY CLA-ed, are nothing short of the best ones. Why ? Because no other one, except for the Contax and its Japanese copies, have the features the Kievs have AND THESE FEATURES COUNTER BALANCE WHAT THE KIEVS LACK.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[ruben]

Hi John,

Let me correct myself as well as making other commentaries.

First, kindly notice that after you posted your above post I had to wait until ending my work day to finnish mine, and added a lot of info.

I have just looked at Henry Scherer website
http://www.zeisscamera.com/services_contaxII.shtml
and: "Complete camera body overhaul = $335.00" in addition to the waiting list.





Now you write:

As far as such a sophisticated focussing system goes , I think it`s complexities were totally unecessary since Zorki. Fed, Leica , and countless other RF`s had simpler but equally capable focussing systems that also produced sharp well focussed pictures too.

Kindly let me remind that Kievs, like Zorkis, Feds and Leicas are system cameras, enabling you to use different lenses. The longest one for example is the 135mm.

There is on the internet an extremely usefull website called "On Line Depht of Field Calculator"
http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html
You fill the info, and the calculator reacts immediately. Thus for example, when you use a 135mm lens, handheld, requiring you at least a speed of 1/125 you may or may not be in trouble regarding the margin of error in your focusing camera.

If you focus at 7 meters and using f/4, you will have a marging of 0.63m, or 63 centimeters. Fair enough.

But if you are focusing a subject only 2 meters away from you, your margin for error will be 5 MILIMETERS !

Ok, perhaps I am going extreme with this 135mm lens, we seldom use. So let's go back to our standard lens, the 50. At room light or plain street light, a subject standing away from you just a meter and half, while your aperture is f/2, will allow you a margin of error of only 10 centimeters.

Of course that if you are using a J-3 for their real task, f/1.5, your margin for error will be dramatically reduced to 8 MILIMETERS.

Are you sure you want to be at those situations without a Kiev ? And a well adjusted one ?

At least in my case, half of my shooting time I am at those situations.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[zhang xk]

Dear Comrade Ruben,

Thanks for your #36 post. I share most of your observations. Kiev is a beautiful precision rangefinder camera.

Kind Regards,

Zhang

 

[SergioGuerra]

I understand that buying cheap cameras without a decent CLA is asking for trouble, but I bought on *bay a cheap user Kiev 4a and it came with shutter ribbon loose and disaligned rangefinder patch (both horizontal and vertical). Since it was described as in full working order I talked with the seller and he sent me another one.. This one looks good, and I managed to use it for one roll of 24 shots, and then it happened.
Shutter curtain is travelling in a diagonal movement, and doesnt catch the first curtain when using slow speeds (looks like another shutter ribbon problem).

Since I fixed the first kiev ribbon problem, I guess it might be easy to fix this one, but I guess this must be a usual problem with these un-CLAred cameras, right?

Lets hope tonight I can make the repair so it will be ready to this weekend photo shootout

Regards, and on this first roll I was starting to like the Kiev. The kiev grip is weird (specially if you like have short fingers), but I was getting used to...

 

[john_van_v]

I post some pretty nutty stuff, but I mean to be funny, even if it is at someone's expense (and I use the short list.. ahemm)

But this is nuts--all I read it for was to find out where to get CLA materials !!

 

[Dave Wilkinson]

I post some pretty nutty stuff, but I mean to be funny, even if it is at someone's expense (and I use the short list.. ahemm)

But this is nuts--all I read it for was to find out where to get CLA materials !!

You actually read it all? .....the words 'glutton' and 'punishment' come to mind!

 

[outfitter]

...that 1964 Kiev-4 was a great machine. Does as great as the Leica M3, but sadly not as reliable.

The camera was designed to have the shutter ribbons replaced every 20 years with factory spec ribbon. If your camera lets go after 40-50 years or was repaired with unsuitable ribbons you can't lay that at the door of reliability. All you can fairly say is that they require too much maintenance. I even dispute that as the cost from a Russian or Ukrainian repairman (there are plenty here in the USA) is under $100 - a lot cheaper tha a CLA on a Leica from the same era.