All the different Sonnars 1.5?

[akptc]

Hi, please forgive my ignorance but I am trying to figure out just how many Sonnar 1.5 lens "models" there are. I've seen these mentioned:

Carl Zeiss Sonnar f1.5
Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar f1.5
Sonnar f1.5

Are these all the same lens? I've heard good things about "Sonnar f1.5" lenses but am not sure which designation..

Would appreciate any info or pointers to online info about these lenses.

- Thanks a bunch.

 

[JoeFriday]

and let us not forget the Sonnar clones

 

[Huck Finn]

The original Sonnar, developed in 1931 by Ludwig Bertele, was f/2. The following year he developed the f/1.5 version. Nikon & Canon both used Sonnar designs in the '50s & at least one of those was f/1.4.

 

[akptc]

Still confused... I found this page, has some info:

http://johnlind.tripod.com/zi/zeissikontext.html

 

[rover]

Jena lenses were made before and after WWII. Earlier ones are not coated, later have the T coatings. The prewar lenses had a few generations with a smallest aperture change from f11 to f16 then f22 I believe. I don't recall if there were such differences after the war.

Well, we forgot the Carl Zeiss Opton marking which evolved to just Carl Zeiss. Lets see, anything else? I don't think there were any 1.5 collapsible.

No, not confusing. 😉

Copies,

Jupiter 3
Nikkor 50/1.5 which begot the Nikkor 50/1.4
Canon 50/1.5

 

[Huck Finn]

Still confused... I found this page, has some info:

http://johnlind.tripod.com/zi/zeissikontext.html

John Lind's website includes the 40 Sonnar in his discussion. If you go to the Zeiss website, you will also find their use of the term Sonnar on their modern lenses. Neither the 40 nor the modern tele Sonnars use the same design as the classic 50/2 & 50/1.5 Sonnars. The later 40 & tele Sonnars are derivative but not the same.

Huck

 

[darkkavenger]

If I'm right the post-war Zeiss-Opton 5cm f/1.5 sonnars were produced at Oberkochen, since Carl Zeiss Jena was unable to supply Zeiss-Ikon Stuttgart A.G. (but I think you guys already said it all and clearly)

 

[akptc]

Thanks everyone for your feedback, this is starting to make sense to me - the Sonnar 1.5 appears to have quite a rich history, much like other hardware that evolved before and after WWII.

I just "won" a 1.5 Sonnar from shopgoodwill.com (2 pics below). The site provides limited info so the buyer must count on their tiny pictures. But, who doesn't like an occasional nice surprise in the mail?-)

I look forward to correctly placing the Sonnar I purchased in its historical lineup, once it gets here.

 

[furcafe]

From the black front rim & the "Carl Zeiss" (not "Carl Zeiss Jena") markings, you appear to have acquired a W. German (Oberkochen) 50/1.5 Sonnar in Contax RF mount, which means its no older than 1953 (when the reconstituted Carl Zeiss in W. Germany dropped the "Zeiss-Opton" mark after they won a lawsuit against Carl Zeiss Jena in E. Germany). Looks like you got a nice 13.5cm/3.5 or 10.5cm/2.5 Nikkor in Contax or Nikon RF mount, too!

Thanks everyone for your feedback, this is starting to make sense to me - the Sonnar 1.5 appears to have quite a rich history, much like other hardware that evolved before and after WWII.

I just "won" a 1.5 Sonnar from shopgoodwill.com (2 pics below). The site provides limited info so the buyer must count on their tiny pictures. But, who doesn't like an occasional nice surprise in the mail?-)

I look forward to correctly placing the Sonnar I purchased in its historical lineup, once it gets here.

 

[VinceC]

The telephoto is definitely a Nikkor 135 f/3.5. If it's Contax RF mount, there will be a small 'C' -- with single quote marks -- engraved near the base, probably white letter on black background. If there's no C, then it's in Nikon S mount.

 

[akptc]

From the black front rim & the "Carl Zeiss" (not "Carl Zeiss Jena") markings, you appear to have acquired a W. German (Oberkochen) 50/1.5 Sonnar in Contax RF mount, which means its no older than 1953 (when the reconstituted Carl Zeiss in W. Germany dropped the "Zeiss-Opton" mark after they won a lawsuit against Carl Zeiss Jena in E. Germany). Looks like you got a nice 13.5cm/3.5 or 10.5cm/2.5 Nikkor in Contax or Nikon RF mount, too!

Thank you! It's so nice to now what I bought 😀 Btw, I got the lot for the Sonnar, not sure what I can do with the other lens.

 

[akptc]

The actual listing on the site that sold it was "Nippon Kogaku Lens marked: Nippon Kogaku Japan No. 265955 Nikkor-QC 1:3.5 f=13.5 cm – Carl Zeiss Lens marked: Sonner 1:1.5 f=50mm Carl Zeiss Nr 1443896".

 

[akptc]

So is the 13.5cm any good? I've never used one of this focal length.

 

[furcafe]

There are many variations of the Sonnars, but you don't have to get into the weeds unless you really want to. The only Sonnars that are typically faked in the former USSR are the 5cm/1.5 & 5cm/2 Sonnars in Leica Thread Mount (LTM) because those are rare & coveted by collectors (Cartier-Bresson used 1, etc.). Yes, it can be difficult to distinguish the genuine article from a doctored Jupiter because the LTM Sonnars were specialty items produced during WWII from a variety of materials, many of which were lightweight alloys just like the ones the Soviets used after WWII for their Sonnar clones after they appropriated much of the Jena lens works. No need to worry about these CZJ LTM lenses unless you're a collector as you can get a really nice Sonnar-type 5cm/1.4 Nikkor-S in LTM that will have superior build quality & equivalent/superior (depending on who you ask) optical performance or numerous other Japanese Sonnar clones like the Canon 50/1.5, also w/superior build quality & equivalent/superior optics.

Contax stuff is not a big deal. However, it is easy to find genuine Zeiss Ikon Contax cameras & Carl Zeiss Jena, Zeiss-Opton, & Carl Zeiss lenses in Contax RF mount--they're common enough that forgery is not really a big issue (although you may run into issues of Kiev parts being used in refurbed Contax IIs & IIIs). As far as coated Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnars produced from the late 1930s through WWII, to my knowledge, they're almost always marked w/a red "T" (the new coating technology itself was classified as a state military secret, but CZJ was justifiably proud of its achievement & was *not* shy about marking its lenses to help w/marketing) & the coating is always a purplish color. Ones produced before WWII & during the early part of the war will have heavy chrome on brass hardware just like their uncoated brethren, ones produced in the middle of the war will have either mixed chrome on brass & light alloy (aluminum?) or all-alloy (no chrome) hardware. FWIW, if you run into a coated lens in Contax RF mount that's marked "Carl Zeiss Jena" but has no red "T," has heavy chrome on brass hardware, & the coating is bright blue or something other than purple, it's most likely an uncoated Sonnar that was coated by a third party optical company sometime during/after WWII (by the 1950s, most people simply bought new lenses for their Contaxes)--these may not have genuine Zeiss coatings, but IME they still perform better than the uncoated lenses. Again, no need to worry about the "authenticity" of these early coated lenses unless you're a collector, as you can rest assured that *all* post-WWII Sonnars, whether they're W. German Zeiss-Opton/Carl Zeiss or E. German Carl Zeiss Jena, will be "T" coated (though W. Germany's Carl Zeiss eventually dropped the "T" marking in the '60s) & are easily found.

"Hi, please forgive my ignorance but I am trying to figure out just how many Sonnar 1.5 lens "models" there are. I've seen these mentioned:

Carl Zeiss Sonnar f1.5
Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar f1.5
Sonnar f1.5"

In another post, Furcafe pointed out to me that the original Carl Zeiss Sonnar f1.5 went through various engineering changes over the decades.

I presume you are referring to the 5cm standard lens: the original early 5cm f1.5 had apertures running from f1.5 to f11 and later advances enabled smaller apertures [often termed "pre-war"]. The later models have apertures running from f1.5- f16, or even f22.

During the war, the materials were often substituted: aluminium replaces brass coverings or fittings.

After the war, the confusion gets worse, with appropriation of the Zeiss plant to Russia, where a lot of spin-offs (as well as originals) were made. I gather that the Zeiss Opton vs Zeiss Jena distinction comes at a later point when the Germany's political divide separates production back into two geographically different plants.


The question about coating has really boggled me: some Zeiss lenses were coated before the war, and unmarked; some were designated with a red "T" and originally coated in Germany; post-war versions - some were coated in the former USSR and the engravings mimicked and others still, recoated by their modern owners, either with a modern single coat or multi-coat in Australia or Ohio. The coating probably doesn't enable a huge degree of historical identification - trying to sift through what is an original CZJ 5cm and what is an imitation is still beyond my limited ability. This is further compounded since I gather that front elements of the 5cm f1.5 were often transplanted into former USSR aluminium barrels too - (also easily scratched) all very confusing for any photographer just wishing to acquire a simple Contax rangefinder and lens to use.

One way around it is to acquire the early Contax II and early uncoated 5cm CZJ 5cm f1.5 which sells for less - the original 5cm CZJs are probably easier for someone new to the original RF Contaxes to identify. Then the only task is repairing the whole broken shutter assembly and everything else 😉

In answer - how many models are there.... (how long is a piece of string?)

Sorry can't be of more help! I'm sure one of our knowledgeable Zeiss enthusiasts here will make clearer sense of this all 😉

 

[VinceC]

The Nikkor 135 is an excellent lens, but most folks consider it an awkward focal length in RF. I use mine more than most people. Optically, there's no difference between newer black-barrel and older chrome-barrel versions. There as a very, very early f/4 version that's collectible. Most of the others are very widely available for very little money. Back in the 1950s, it was every consumer-photog's second lens purchase, after the normal, but not many people want them anymore.

 

[furcafe]

As Brian can tell you, yes. It's a variation on the Zeiss 135/4 Sonnar. If it's marked w/a white "C" in single quotes (like: 'C') on the barrel, it will be the Contax RF version. If there's no 'C', then you have the Nikon RF version, which won't be really compatible w/your Contax (still useable if you use a small enough aperture or @ infinity, etc.).

So is the 13.5cm any good? I've never used one of this focal length.

 

[akptc]

furcafe (Chris?) - this is fascinating info. I am not a collector by any stretch of the imagination yet find myself intrigued by some of the rather complex evolutions of the photo hardware I read about here. For me, not the least interesting are the reflections of the pre- and post war European history in all of this (I grew up in Poland).

Vince – I like your photo, especially the vivid yet nicely blurred background. From the user perspective, I am hoping either lens (especially the 1.5 Sonnar) performs well, this would be my 1st German-made lens under f2.

 

[VinceC]

The 50mm Sonnars almost always are considered top performers. There were some quality-control issues postwar due to the company's break-up. The lenses also can flare badly when shot backlit into the sun. But they're very sharp with good contrast.

 

[akptc]

Lots of examples here:....

Brian, thank you for the links - wow! those are fantastic shots, especially the wide open ones. I can't wait to try the 13.5 cm lens myself.

 

[furcafe]

Yes, the industrial (& national) history can be fascinating. For more about Zeiss Ikon's Contax cameras, I highly recommend Hans-Jurgen Kuc's 2 volume history.

furcafe (Chris?) - this is fascinating info. I am not a collector by any stretch of the imagination yet find myself intrigued by some of the rather complex evolutions of the photo hardware I read about here. For me, not the least interesting are the reflections of the pre- and post war European history in all of this (I grew up in Poland).