Morry Katz
Established
The alternative is called the Darkroom. And you'll learn the in's and out's a lot quicker
than the digital alternatives. For a lot less money too. Try it, you'll like it.
than the digital alternatives. For a lot less money too. Try it, you'll like it.
semilog
curmudgeonly optimist
Although I have my issues with Adobe the name of this program is tasteless. It simply screams "someone else had an idea and I'm a FOSS zealot who's never had an original idea in his entire life."
bwcolor
Veteran
I'm collecting parts for my Mac replacement and I can see a dual boot Windows 8/Ubuntu. Darktable in the present form looks quite attractive. Vuescan works just fine on a Linux machine. I mostly use Aperture and only use PS to downsize my scans. I wouldn't use Gimp because it won't save 16 bit TIFFs. Is there a Linux program that retains 16bit and has reasonable downsizing ability? I would retain Windows 8 unless a great Linux based video editing program magically appears.
jslabovitz
Member
ImageMagick is a powerful toolkit for resizing and otherwise batch-processing images. It's a command-line tool, so not so great for doing pixel-by-pixel work, but quite appropriate for something like a resizing process that you do the same way every time. It probably has a dozen methods & algorithms for resizing/scaling, and I've always found it to produce images of very good quality. And yes, it deals very well with 16-bit images, and does outputs TIFF (along with about a hundred other formats).
ChrisN
Striving
Leaving aside all the nerdy stuff, the real question for many of us would be - is there a transition path from Lightroom to Darktable, and from Darktable back to Lightroom (or other similar software? Many of us are heavily-invested in Lightroom, simply by the number of files we have cataloged with it (>50k at last count). We all like free stuff and hate Adobe's business model, but their stuff works pretty well.
How does DT handle metadata (both exif-type metadata and post-processing type metadata?
Can it read LR metadata written to sidecar files?
Can it read LR metadata written into the original files?
Can it read all variations of the Adobe DNG format?
Does it support keywording and keyword hierarchies?
Does it support the LR Library and folder structures I've already created?
And if I change my mind later, can I go back to using Lightroom?
How does DT handle metadata (both exif-type metadata and post-processing type metadata?
Can it read LR metadata written to sidecar files?
Can it read LR metadata written into the original files?
Can it read all variations of the Adobe DNG format?
Does it support keywording and keyword hierarchies?
Does it support the LR Library and folder structures I've already created?
And if I change my mind later, can I go back to using Lightroom?
bwcolor
Veteran
Can you transition back and forth between Aperture and Lightroom? I think that you already know that you can't readily move between any of these programs. I wasn't planning to move my 50K of images and loose all of my work.
flip
良かったね！
Heh. I remember working with Linux starting in the mid 90's. That was an effort in nerdiness.
If you couldn't sort your makefiles, .config files, kernel version and dependencies, you weren't even going to SEE the (graphics) app you downloaded, which was likely a command line batch processor anyhow.I always keep a linux partition on hand. I may have to check this out pending compatibility of file formats.
daveleo
what?
It's true that once you are heavily invested in a proprietary software
package, you can't get out of it.
This happened years back of course with MSOffice. Businesses adopted
that package (which was brilliant in its day) and after a few years, there was no going back, as nothing
(for example Open Office) was truly, seemlessly compatible.
I doubt anyone will write a code that is 100% compatible with files created
and saved by some previous commercial code.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Lucky you, Tom
I am looking forward to not have to wreck my brain in 12 hrs coding daily anymore ...
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
I forgot that darktable can be run on OS X also.
I used OS X for about 3 years in one of my jobs, pretty nice, but I'm back to Linux once I have the choice.
I used OS X for about 3 years in one of my jobs, pretty nice, but I'm back to Linux once I have the choice.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
darktable store the changes in a structured text file (XML/RDF) on the same directory where the original file is. Which is a plus in ease of maintenance. Zip the whole directory, and back it up. It'll be there for the new computer.
Lightroom employs a database to store the changes. Lose this (or the computer), and you'd be hard-pressed to recover anything.
darktable never claimed to be a drop in replacement of Lightroom.
It's an alternative, not a two way street.
In fact, what software is there out there that does all the above?
ChrisN
Striving
"darktable store the changes in a structured text file (XML/RDF) on the same directory where the original file is. Which is a plus in ease of maintenance. Zip the whole directory, and back it up. It'll be there for the new computer."
That sounds good.
"darktable never claimed to be a drop in replacement of Lightroom.
It's an alternative, not a two way street."
Of course. I don't think anyone has suggested that it is a direct replacement, unfortunately. I'll bet Adobe has taken steps to make that very difficult.
"Lightroom employs a database to store the changes. Lose this (or the computer), and you'd be hard-pressed to recover anything."
No. For DNG, TIFF, PSD and JPG files the metadata is written into the original image file. For proprietary formats such as Pentax PEF files it writes the metadata to XMP sidecar files stored in the same folder as the image file.
I can create a new catalog and import a folder full of files I've already processed and Lightroom picks up the editing work already done and the keywords assigned, from the image files or from the sidecar files. The editing history isn't there, but the preview image displayed shows the result of the edits that were made previously, and of course if I hit the "reset" button I have the original unedited raw image that came from the camera. I think the Lightroom catalog (the .lrcat file and associated folders) holds the preview images and the editing history. As long as I have the image files backed up in their folder structure, I can create a new LR catalog with a fresh installation of LR.
I can create a new catalog and import a folder full of files I've already processed and Lightroom picks up the editing work already done and the keywords assigned, from the image files or from the sidecar files. The editing history isn't there, but the preview image displayed shows the result of the edits that were made previously, and of course if I hit the "reset" button I have the original unedited raw image that came from the camera. I think the Lightroom catalog (the .lrcat file and associated folders) holds the preview images and the editing history. As long as I have the image files backed up in their folder structure, I can create a new LR catalog with a fresh installation of LR.
"In fact, what software is there out there that does all the above?"
Lightroom?
[IRONY] What I'm hoping for is that some other software developer will provide a similar program that has the same functionality as Lightroom, and able to import all my files with the LR metadata, but for free or at least for a much less expensive price. I don't like my chances! [/IRONY]
ChrisN
Striving
Yep, got one. Love it.
But I still need LR to let me catalog and keyword-index my images (yes even my scans from negatives), and I really enjoy working up my visualisation of a final image in Lightroom before I waste too much paper in the darkroom.
bensyverson
Well-known
Writing as someone who makes most of their money developing photo software... You want me to spend years developing a product to compete with a 22 billion dollar company, and then release the product for free? Or cheap?
I mean, get it. This is deeply frustrating. I personally think the monthly payment model is a mistake, even though in my particular case it saves me money.
It always boils down to time versus money. You pay money to save yourself time. Lightroom and Aperture both store their data in SQLite. If you really want to break the Adobe/Apple shackles, you can convert or work with that data using the low-level SQL data. Of course, that data is primarily describing the parameters of 100% proprietary Raw converters.
So you may be able to see that the Whites slider was set to -100 for a particular shot, but unless you can perfectly emulate that particular Camera RAW version, what good is that knowledge? Developing a feature-complete Camera RAW emulator would take some time. Months. Maybe years. How much time would you need to spend until you would be willing to pay $150 for Lightroom?
You have to choose your battles. It's technically possible to make your own paper and inkjet inks, but really, life is too short.
ChrisN
Striving
Sorry - I forgot to put in the [IRONY] markers. Fixed now.
Of course I don't expect people to work for nothing - either photographers or software developers. It amazes me that people put things like Darktable and Gimp out there for free or as donationware.
furbs
Well-known
I can imagine that some professional photographers might feel the same about you (and most of the rest of us, including me) making your photography available for free online. But though darktable, my flickr, and my friends' myspace band webpage are all free and content-rich, my friends and I have found much of our work through the attention garnered by all that free content. It's safe to say darktable's developer, Pascal de Bruijn (as well as the capable developers of libraw, its raw converter), has probably found plenty of work from the exposure gained by making such useful software easily accessible. No good work goes unrewarded and such.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.
LR perform non-destructive editing. Therefore it would defeat that purpose if the changes are written into the original files.
LR employs a database called Berkeley DB, that's where they store the editing information. Lose access to this database, and all your changes are gone.
ChrisN
Striving
There's space set aside in the structure of the file to record this sort of data, without changing the image at all.
The process I described above, of creating a new LR catalog populated with files I'd already post-processed and created keywords for, is easily tested by anyone with a copy of Lightroom.
EDIT: I think the metadata (including the developing metadata) is also included in the LR catalog, as LR takes time to write the metadata to the files, so it must store it somewhere else before it writes to the files. This makes sense - if I create several virtual copies of an original file each with different edits, these are not picked up when I create a new catalog and import the original image files, so these must be stored in the catalog rather than written to the original file.
The question is moot. If I was in a situation that would lose me my LR catalog, I'd lose the original image files also. My backup system captures multiple copies of all my images files and the associated LR catalog. I'd need the same backup system regardless of which editing software I use. And from looking further at the Darktable website, it looks like they have no intention of introducing a Library module for image management. That function is just as important for me as the editing functions.
The process I described above, of creating a new LR catalog populated with files I'd already post-processed and created keywords for, is easily tested by anyone with a copy of Lightroom.
EDIT: I think the metadata (including the developing metadata) is also included in the LR catalog, as LR takes time to write the metadata to the files, so it must store it somewhere else before it writes to the files. This makes sense - if I create several virtual copies of an original file each with different edits, these are not picked up when I create a new catalog and import the original image files, so these must be stored in the catalog rather than written to the original file.
The question is moot. If I was in a situation that would lose me my LR catalog, I'd lose the original image files also. My backup system captures multiple copies of all my images files and the associated LR catalog. I'd need the same backup system regardless of which editing software I use. And from looking further at the Darktable website, it looks like they have no intention of introducing a Library module for image management. That function is just as important for me as the editing functions.