John Bragg
Well-known
Is printing something that improves with time, or are we either blessed with a good eye, or cursed to never have the ability to make a credible interpretation of our images on paper ?
This includes colour and black and white and also silver and inkjet.
This includes colour and black and white and also silver and inkjet.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Printing does improve with practice. Something that helps is seeing good prints; many amateur photographers have never seen one and have no idea what a good print can and should look like.
I see it all the time online where people post photos that were shot on B&W film that they scanned. Most are really flat and lifeless because they've gotten it in their head that editing the scan is somehow wrong and that you should use images straight from the scanner. Anyone who has spent any time looking at good prints in museums or in major galleries that carry the work of great photographers would know that such a philosophy is bull****.
I have been lucky in living in places where good prints were accessible. From Fort Wayne, Indiana the Art Institute of Chicago is a relatively short drive. I've been there many times and they have an excellent photography collection. Even the little Fort Wayne Museum of Art has hosted some great photography shows. I also lived in Santa Fe, where the works of people like Cartier-Bresson, Ansel Adams, Edward Steichen, Edward S. Curtis, John Sexton and many others were on display at places like Andrew Smith's gallery (which has since moved to Arizona) and Photo-Eye.
I see it all the time online where people post photos that were shot on B&W film that they scanned. Most are really flat and lifeless because they've gotten it in their head that editing the scan is somehow wrong and that you should use images straight from the scanner. Anyone who has spent any time looking at good prints in museums or in major galleries that carry the work of great photographers would know that such a philosophy is bull****.
I have been lucky in living in places where good prints were accessible. From Fort Wayne, Indiana the Art Institute of Chicago is a relatively short drive. I've been there many times and they have an excellent photography collection. Even the little Fort Wayne Museum of Art has hosted some great photography shows. I also lived in Santa Fe, where the works of people like Cartier-Bresson, Ansel Adams, Edward Steichen, Edward S. Curtis, John Sexton and many others were on display at places like Andrew Smith's gallery (which has since moved to Arizona) and Photo-Eye.
Out to Lunch
Ventor
On a beside, I don't think Cartier-Bresson printed his pictures. This task was left to professionals in a Parisian lab. In the digital age it is sometimes not much different, with renowned photographers having their work fine-tuned by 20-year-old PhotoShop wizards. Cheers, OtL
John Bragg
Well-known
Thanks Chris. Do you find that certain papers suit you and your workflow? I have just discovered Fotospeed Baryta 300 and it has a great feel and look in my opinion.
John Bragg
Well-known
I understand that HCB frequently had input and had a clear vision of how his work should be printed. He allegedly sent the prints for Europeans back as being too contrasty for him.
Out to Lunch
Ventor
Sure, but he did not do the work himself. On the digital front, I remember a documentary about Daido Moriyama. At one point, he is sitting behind a large computer screen telling his PhotoShop wizard how he wants the editing to be done. Cheers, OtL
robert blu
quiet photographer
I agree with OtL that many photographgers let the PhotoShop Wizars (great definition!) work their files, or sometimes they do it together.
Not different in the "silver era", seen this in many videos or interviews.
Personally I like to edit, postprocess and print myself. Of course it takes time to arrive at an optimal result. I decided to stick to three max four kinds of paper which after time I know quite well.
I noticed that it becomes easier when I print many photos iin a short time window, even using a calibrated monitor ( I use an Eizo) your eye learn how the photo on the screen translates into a print and eventually which adjustements are necessary.
As it was in the darkroom (wet darkroom I mean) to learn the best accessory is a trash bin!
Not different in the "silver era", seen this in many videos or interviews.
Personally I like to edit, postprocess and print myself. Of course it takes time to arrive at an optimal result. I decided to stick to three max four kinds of paper which after time I know quite well.
I noticed that it becomes easier when I print many photos iin a short time window, even using a calibrated monitor ( I use an Eizo) your eye learn how the photo on the screen translates into a print and eventually which adjustements are necessary.
As it was in the darkroom (wet darkroom I mean) to learn the best accessory is a trash bin!
Erik van Straten
Veteran
All the work in the darkroom for the pictures of Cartier-Bresson was done by Picto (Pictorial Service), one of the first professional services for professional photographers in the world, founded by Pierre Gassman. This company still exists in Paris. They also had departments in the US. They were for a large part responsible for the success of Cartier-Bresson, because he himself did not like the work in the darkroom.
https://www.dnb.com/business-direct...service.f9b7871e532e399745b8caa434704130.html
Erik.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
The fact that he hired a printer makes no difference; the prints are still great and are good examples to look at.
Out to Lunch
Ventor
The fact that he hired a printer makes no difference: it raises the question of who produced the ultimate image. Not that I have a problem with this collaborative effort; the prints are still great: I'd delete 'still'; and are good examples to look at: absolutely.
Cheers, OtL
Cheers, OtL
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
I do ink-jets and darkroom bw. I'm not this @#$№ genius to figure it out from very first print.
Darkroom ones takes heck a lot of trials and errors. To get decent print I would use ten sheets easily. And here is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Years ago someone shared one Turkish darkroom printer blog where some prints process was explained. Very good printer who has entire single entry on his blog with detailed explanations how one particular print was done. Not a few lines entry, but massive, with each stage explained, illustrated.
Ink Jets is not far from it. To get nice prints consistently huge amount of all kind of things needs to be put together, optimized and adjusted accordingly with understanding. With all of my work with computer graphics farms and publishing houses I still nowhere near to be good by myself. If I need high quality inkjet print, I bring the file to local camera shop, where one particular person does ink jet so good, they are as good as darkroom prints. He does it for living.
HCB might been good printer. But good print is never quick and dirty thing. HCB was one of the few photogs with rare real live experience allowing him to go and survive in remote places. Not just hanging around cozy villas with servants, but marching with red army of China for months.
So, it is obvious. Do prints and less photography, or do photography most.
Darkroom ones takes heck a lot of trials and errors. To get decent print I would use ten sheets easily. And here is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Years ago someone shared one Turkish darkroom printer blog where some prints process was explained. Very good printer who has entire single entry on his blog with detailed explanations how one particular print was done. Not a few lines entry, but massive, with each stage explained, illustrated.
Ink Jets is not far from it. To get nice prints consistently huge amount of all kind of things needs to be put together, optimized and adjusted accordingly with understanding. With all of my work with computer graphics farms and publishing houses I still nowhere near to be good by myself. If I need high quality inkjet print, I bring the file to local camera shop, where one particular person does ink jet so good, they are as good as darkroom prints. He does it for living.
HCB might been good printer. But good print is never quick and dirty thing. HCB was one of the few photogs with rare real live experience allowing him to go and survive in remote places. Not just hanging around cozy villas with servants, but marching with red army of China for months.
So, it is obvious. Do prints and less photography, or do photography most.
Ulophot
Ulophot
The advice to study fine original prints is essential -- they can be inspirationally motivating! There are also good discussions about printing to be found, which can help to guide you, even if they don't apply directly to your own approach. For instance, a working understanding of the Zone System (and I would recommend going to the source on this, i.e., Adams, although some find his explanations too labored) can help you grasp the means by which a given negative's density range can be "married" with paper contrast to help achieve the result you seek. Adams emphasized that his system was simply a means to use the inherent features of our materials for creative expression.
Perhaps others here could help you with suggestions if you were to post a print or two with which you are not satisfied.
Regarding Cartier-Bresson not printing his own work, it is also true that Salbastiao Delgado preferred to leave the darkroom work to others. C-B dismissed the identification of his work as art. In my view, an artist should be responsible for his work entirely.
Perhaps others here could help you with suggestions if you were to post a print or two with which you are not satisfied.
Regarding Cartier-Bresson not printing his own work, it is also true that Salbastiao Delgado preferred to leave the darkroom work to others. C-B dismissed the identification of his work as art. In my view, an artist should be responsible for his work entirely.
John Bragg
Well-known
Thanks Philip. The thread is not about me being dissatisfied with my workflow, but it is about discussing the journey some of us make from novice to accomplished printer. Most of my experience is darkroom related, but I am happy in the world of inkjet as well. I find paper choice is equally important in either medium so any highly recommended paper might save lots of searching and expense. My preferrence is for an unglazed gloss or pearl look.
jawarden
Well-known
Black and white printing definitely improves over time with practice. Color is different, especially if you are one of the 1 in 12 men that have some degree of colorblindness. For those people (like me) I suggest Tri-X.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
My experience differs dramatically. I have been printing digitally for about 20 years after many years in a wet darkroom. I use a complete color managed system and consistency. I can accurately tell what the final print will look like from the screen, so adjust until I am satisfied with what the print will look like, then print. 95+% of my first prints are also final.
I recently printed 24 large prints for an exhibit. $4- for each sheet of paper plus ink. Shot over 3 years in light from sunny outdoors to after dark to inside a movie theater, the lighting varied widely but a visual consistency was necessary among the 24 prints which were hung side by side. None of these images had ever been printed before but I was 24 for 24 in printing.
mapgraphs
Established
Practice. Practice. Practice.
Fresh out of school, I spent three years in a regional photography studio's lab printing everything from 35mm to 8x10 negatives for portraits, weddings, school events, copy work etc., Printing on a Kodak 5" roll printer for 35mm & 120mm, usually on Kodak polycontrast and then 8x10 - 16x20 enlargements printed mostly on Ektalure and Azo papers. During the various seasons (weddings, school etc.) I might have pounded out 3,500 prints a day on the roll printer for proofing in addition to any hand enlargements (and daily rush developing). If you're working to someone's criteria, you look at a lot of prints and you learn how to read prints, whether you want to or not... ; - )
You might say creating a good print is proportional to how many good prints you have looked at...
Fresh out of school, I spent three years in a regional photography studio's lab printing everything from 35mm to 8x10 negatives for portraits, weddings, school events, copy work etc., Printing on a Kodak 5" roll printer for 35mm & 120mm, usually on Kodak polycontrast and then 8x10 - 16x20 enlargements printed mostly on Ektalure and Azo papers. During the various seasons (weddings, school etc.) I might have pounded out 3,500 prints a day on the roll printer for proofing in addition to any hand enlargements (and daily rush developing). If you're working to someone's criteria, you look at a lot of prints and you learn how to read prints, whether you want to or not... ; - )
You might say creating a good print is proportional to how many good prints you have looked at...
It truly depends on what the artists deems important. Not many people in today's art world would be able to meet your standard.
icebear
Veteran
Two things are essential:
1. You need a vision on how the final result should look like
2. You need to know how to get there from your starting point
=> Therefore you need to know your workflow / your tools.
Be it wet or digital process doesn't really matter that much.
And for both ways of working the following does apply:
The better the exposed image quality, the easier it is to achieve a great print.
Obviously as with everthing in life, there is a learning curve and experience will help down the road.
I consider the paper as "tool" as well.
1. You need a vision on how the final result should look like
2. You need to know how to get there from your starting point
=> Therefore you need to know your workflow / your tools.
Be it wet or digital process doesn't really matter that much.
And for both ways of working the following does apply:
The better the exposed image quality, the easier it is to achieve a great print.
Obviously as with everthing in life, there is a learning curve and experience will help down the road.
I consider the paper as "tool" as well.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Awesome!
Not only I have nothing calibrated on my PC, but I'm using no name inks and cheapest paper I could get
.My darkroom is about the same. I'm using open box paper and most of it is something like twenty-forty years old.
.
Horatio
Masked photographer
My darkroom is about the same. I'm using open box paper and most of it is something like twenty-forty years old.
I'm about to begin printing with expired paper, some of it 8x10 Kodabrome RC. Any tips?