animefx
Established
There is already a special edition of the M9 with LED framelines out there, which I think is a pretty good idea. However, I think they should take a few steps beyond this idea... You could have variable custome framelines.
Have a 40mm Rokkor-M / 40mm Summicron-C, 40mm Voigtlander you want frame lines for? How about the Zeiss 85mm? The M10 could have a custom menu or control where it displays 0, 1, or 2 frame lines and at any focal length of your choosing. So you Could put 40mm into the menu and LED frame lines would pop up. This would be nice so there would be less guess work, and more accurate. Sometimes I don't want to see the other framelines so my view is less obstructed, or maybe I want 40mm framelines and 28mm, or 90mm, I could have any combination displayed.
If you found an odd focal length lens (there are some out there) you could also put that into the menu and the M10 would show the framelines for it, say 25mm (for the 25mm Zeiss) or 58mm for the 58mm rokkor (I admit I'm not sure if there is an M version of this lens) and another one could be the 60mm Hexagon. All could have frame lines in a future Leica M camera.
This would also give Leica a little more freedom to come out with a few more focal lengths if they chose to. I'm a bit of a pureist so I don't know if I would like them to release more focal lengths beyond the classics (although 75mm isn't really a classic), but it would be nice at least to control how many and which framelines I see at any given time.
Imagine a Leica 40mm Summilux ASPH
(yes I know, just take a big step back)
Again, I have no complains about the current system, I love my M8! I'm just throwing some ideas out there to see what people think.
Have a 40mm Rokkor-M / 40mm Summicron-C, 40mm Voigtlander you want frame lines for? How about the Zeiss 85mm? The M10 could have a custom menu or control where it displays 0, 1, or 2 frame lines and at any focal length of your choosing. So you Could put 40mm into the menu and LED frame lines would pop up. This would be nice so there would be less guess work, and more accurate. Sometimes I don't want to see the other framelines so my view is less obstructed, or maybe I want 40mm framelines and 28mm, or 90mm, I could have any combination displayed.
If you found an odd focal length lens (there are some out there) you could also put that into the menu and the M10 would show the framelines for it, say 25mm (for the 25mm Zeiss) or 58mm for the 58mm rokkor (I admit I'm not sure if there is an M version of this lens) and another one could be the 60mm Hexagon. All could have frame lines in a future Leica M camera.
This would also give Leica a little more freedom to come out with a few more focal lengths if they chose to. I'm a bit of a pureist so I don't know if I would like them to release more focal lengths beyond the classics (although 75mm isn't really a classic), but it would be nice at least to control how many and which framelines I see at any given time.
Imagine a Leica 40mm Summilux ASPH
(yes I know, just take a big step back)Again, I have no complains about the current system, I love my M8! I'm just throwing some ideas out there to see what people think.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
No, it's a truly rotten idea. A camera with frames that don't come on until you press the shutter release and start draining the battery? Also, all the LED does is to illuminate an existing frameline mask: it's not some magic device for infiniitely variable framelines.
I've handled this camera, and I thought it was a perfect example of the sort of thing that gets 'design' a bad name: someone trying to stamp his personality on a product (and a whole industry) with which he is totally unfamiliar.
Cheers,
R..
I've handled this camera, and I thought it was a perfect example of the sort of thing that gets 'design' a bad name: someone trying to stamp his personality on a product (and a whole industry) with which he is totally unfamiliar.
Cheers,
R..
andredossantos
Well-known
How dare you question Leica!?!?
Just kidding. Being able to accommodate any FL is a cool idea and at least to me seems like it wouldn't be too difficult to implement. Of course, I could be way off there.
Just kidding. Being able to accommodate any FL is a cool idea and at least to me seems like it wouldn't be too difficult to implement. Of course, I could be way off there.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
I think you are. How are you going to do it? Have you even a rough idea? Bear in mind it has to fit in the available space...
Cheers,
R.
christian.rudman
digital to analog convert
Roger, I think the idea of the OP was this is an idea, not a Leica serviceman's attempt at actually doing this. The idea is great, smashing it with your obvious omniscience in all things camera is no fun.
I think it's an interesting and wonderful idea (don't know about the LED thing though, customizable brightlines would be amazing). Implementation as our friend Roger has pointed out might be a tad hard, but we are talking about a new camera, NOT the current available space. It would be interesting to see what the Leica gurus could spit out with this idea.
Of course, I could be way off there.
I think it's an interesting and wonderful idea (don't know about the LED thing though, customizable brightlines would be amazing). Implementation as our friend Roger has pointed out might be a tad hard, but we are talking about a new camera, NOT the current available space. It would be interesting to see what the Leica gurus could spit out with this idea.
Of course, I could be way off there.
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animefx
Established
Hmmm... You have a good point about the battery drain. Otherwise to go easy on the battery the LED frame lines would only show up if say the shutter was half pressed. Unfortunatly, this means you couldn't frame your shot very well if you were waiting for something to happen (which I often do)
Of course, if this used OLED technology the power drain would be very minimal. When the camera was turned on these framelines could be illuminated just enough to be visible.
I suppose the biggest problem is that you couldn't turn this feature off. If you didn't like it, there would be no framelines showing (because none are drawn on like they are now)
Of course, if this used OLED technology the power drain would be very minimal. When the camera was turned on these framelines could be illuminated just enough to be visible.
I suppose the biggest problem is that you couldn't turn this feature off. If you didn't like it, there would be no framelines showing (because none are drawn on like they are now)
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andredossantos
Well-known
No, I really don't have a rough idea how Leica would go about doing it but I would imagine there would have to be electronics involved (instead of the mask). What I meant in my above post was that I'm sure there is a way, hypothetically speaking. However, to what degree this change would alter the basic dimensions and construction of the camera is speculation.
Anyway, isn't this entire thread simply a hypothetical? Sheesh, so serious. How did I know this thread would be quickly have the kibosh put on it? LOL!
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Yes, it's a great idea -- IF you can do it. That doesn't affect the question of whether it can be done. I'd be delighted (and so would Leica) if someone could figure out how. I'm just asking if ANYONE has ANY idea how. Remember the old proverb: if wishes were horses, then beggars might ride.
The 'rotten idea' bit referred to the fact that there are no frame-lines until you half-depress the shutter button (and start draining the battery). Are you seriously suggesting that this is a good idea?
And yes, it does have to fit into the available space, unless you want a bigger camera. Look at the success of the M5 and ask yourself if Leica wants to make that mistake again. Plenty find the digi-Ms a dit podgy.
Cheers,
R.
The 'rotten idea' bit referred to the fact that there are no frame-lines until you half-depress the shutter button (and start draining the battery). Are you seriously suggesting that this is a good idea?
And yes, it does have to fit into the available space, unless you want a bigger camera. Look at the success of the M5 and ask yourself if Leica wants to make that mistake again. Plenty find the digi-Ms a dit podgy.
Cheers,
R.
christian.rudman
digital to analog convert
That reply makes more sense.
With the way that camera technology is expanding it is not unfathomable that they could conceive some things to operate this way in an even smaller body. And as animefx was pointing out, there are definitely things you can do (like OLEDs) to change the idea around to fit in with current and new tech. Interesting little thread, I'm looking forward to seeing where this discussion heads.
With the way that camera technology is expanding it is not unfathomable that they could conceive some things to operate this way in an even smaller body. And as animefx was pointing out, there are definitely things you can do (like OLEDs) to change the idea around to fit in with current and new tech. Interesting little thread, I'm looking forward to seeing where this discussion heads.
PatrickT
New Rangefinder User
I love the idea. The issues brought up can be worked around.
As for space..do you think that's the mentality companies like Apple have when they design the new iPhone? Think of all of the stuff packed in that tiny case. It's amazing. I'm sure they could find space for something like this in the size of a Leica body...hell, look at the X100. It's smaller!
But yeah, very good idea.
As for space..do you think that's the mentality companies like Apple have when they design the new iPhone? Think of all of the stuff packed in that tiny case. It's amazing. I'm sure they could find space for something like this in the size of a Leica body...hell, look at the X100. It's smaller!
But yeah, very good idea.
Jeff S
Well-known
After 3 decades with film Ms, and 3 years with the M8.2, I now find film Ms a bit too skinny. Never expected that; funny how one adapts. (Not suggesting Leica go bigger still...just a general contrarian view, as usual for me).
Jeff
animefx
Established
Also, I just realized that the Canon 7D "kind of" does it already... You have the option to turn on guides in the viewfinder to line up your horizon so your photos will be straight. Of course the 7D is HUGE in comparison to any Leica M, and it's completely different technology, but there is no reason why Leica couldn't adapt some of it.
I don't think size is realy an issue when we see smaller and smaller iPhones which have become like a digital swiff army knife, and smaller cameras like the Sony NEX that are pretty impressive for what they are.
I don't think size is realy an issue when we see smaller and smaller iPhones which have become like a digital swiff army knife, and smaller cameras like the Sony NEX that are pretty impressive for what they are.
That reply makes more sense.
With the way that camera technology is expanding it is not unfathomable that they could conceive some things to operate this way in an even smaller body. And as animefx was pointing out, there are definitely things you can do (like OLEDs) to change the idea around to fit in with current and new tech. Interesting little thread, I'm looking forward to seeing where this discussion heads.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Jeff,
I quite agree, though actually, I adapted slightly differently. I find (after several years with the digi-Ms) that I notice the podginess far less than I did when I first got the M8.
Cheers,
R.
gavinlg
Veteran
I think the customizable projected frame lines is a seriously good idea, and one that would take Leica digital M's to the next level.
As for battery life - how is it that a camera like the d700/5dmkII can get over 2000-3000 shots out of a single small battery, with live view, high FPS, constant external lcd use etc - surely leica could utilize that battery technology and get at least 1000-2000 shots out of a single charge...
As for battery life - how is it that a camera like the d700/5dmkII can get over 2000-3000 shots out of a single small battery, with live view, high FPS, constant external lcd use etc - surely leica could utilize that battery technology and get at least 1000-2000 shots out of a single charge...
Particular
a.k.a. CNNY, disassembler
I agree that LED technology doesn't make sense, but how about using e-paper (like in a kindle) in place of the traditional mask. E-paper only uses power to change the image, not to display it. That way you would see the frame lines even when the camera is off. It would still using the illumination window. I think there should be enough wiggle room in the M7/M8/M9 rangefinder to swap out the mask. The down side would be that you would need to power up to use the preview lever or after swapping a lens.
I highly doubt that leica would choose to mess with something that clearly isn't broke. I find it more probable that they would add a (slow) live view mode in case someone wants precise framing for something like an architectural shot. Presumably advances in sensors and processing will make that easier to implement in future.
JoeV
Thin Air, Bright Sun
Aren't the existing (non-LED) framelines lit by ambient light? Then how about ambient light-backlit LCD framelines? LCDs draw very little battery power, much less than LEDs.
Regarding Roger's criticism of the idea, he has a valid point if the idea were implemented so as to require manual selection via a menu. How about retaining a lens cam sensor that detects lens focal length, but one that then electronically actuates the proper LCD frameline. And then that automatic frameline selection could be over-ridden, if necessary, by a software selection menu, in the case of using specialty focal lengths.
~Joe
Regarding Roger's criticism of the idea, he has a valid point if the idea were implemented so as to require manual selection via a menu. How about retaining a lens cam sensor that detects lens focal length, but one that then electronically actuates the proper LCD frameline. And then that automatic frameline selection could be over-ridden, if necessary, by a software selection menu, in the case of using specialty focal lengths.
~Joe
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
How about Leica have a chat with the Fuji engineers?
Or would that be sacrilige?
Or would that be sacrilige?
j j
Well-known
Lots of the viewfinder markings (AF marks and so on) in the 7D are electronic, not just the horizon guide.
Huge? 5.5 x 3.1 x 1.5 inches versus 5.8 x 4.3 x 2.8 inches. The thickness difference is largely due to the handgrip on the Canon. M cameras are not small cameras compared with most SLRs. I don't buy the whole no spare space in an M thing either. The faux film-changing base takes a fair amount of space to no practical end.
christian.rudman
digital to analog convert
I think Keith just engineered the idea on how to get an actual production model of this notion designed and produced. Not to mention they would be able to do it in less space (as the X100 can attest to.)
V
varjag
Guest
What can X100 attest to? It doesn't have a rangefinder in the first place. It's framelines are pathetic, they don't even adjust parallax as you focus manually. This however is more a problem of sloppy software.