al1966
Feed Your Head
There does seem to be a lot of guff options in the menus of modern cameras, but I will go through them once. For me its a simple case of set to Raw, switch off the horrendous beeps make a button for ISO if there is not one and just use. Even when out shooting the initial look at the light to set aperture and then its just framing of the scene. Given the preference for as much depth of field as possible most of the time AF errors are hidden so I can work very fast. Things that wind me up on modern cameras are clunky menus that follow little to no logical patterns, stupid mode dials (1st gen Nikon 1) than you have to tape in place and being forced in to the menu to change ISO. I would also say why oh why do Olympus and Panasonic zooms work the opposite way when they are the co originators of the standard, Panasonic do it right like nearly every other zoom I have used but then I only use one zoom now so its no biggie.
Archlich
Well-known
Seems that for every new camera release we are having at least one "I don't need it" thread. Why bother?
If don't need it, don't buy it. Manufacturers have to press on releasing new products to survive, while few of us do constantly need a new camera, both are just natural...
If don't need it, don't buy it. Manufacturers have to press on releasing new products to survive, while few of us do constantly need a new camera, both are just natural...
Michael Markey
Veteran
A fact often overlooked in these discussions.
Many photographers I meet are enthusiastic about the ever increasing technical capacity of their cameras especially when it comes to connectivity.
Its not the manufactures that are driving this but consumer demand.
I have three different digital cameras and it takes me a while to adjust when I switch bodies but not an idiot .... no .
Michael Markey
Veteran
Hi Lynn
Depends on the pictures I`ve learned.
I`m not sure that the MO celebrated here is universal.
I`ve recently started going out with a group of mainly landscape photographers.
Their MO is to frame the shot then adjust via the endless menus and filters in situ.
The more in camera options the better as far as they`re concerned as it eliminates post .
robert blu
quiet photographer
I'm in your club Bill! Once cameras had four basic controls: iso, aperture, time and focus.
Now they have so many options...
Time ago I suggested a friend to buy an Olympus Pen F. He did and was (still is) very satisfied. Planning to buy one myself ask him to show me in details his camera. And when my friend showed me the various menus, the controls, the customization, the...I decided that was a beautiful camera with excellent lenses but for sure not the camera for me!
This is why I'm happy with my M10 which I'll keep for many years...indenpendently from the new "toys" which will appear on the market. As I did with my Leica x1 which I still use after almost 8 years...
robert
PS: iso,aperture,time, focus...this is my photography life
Now they have so many options...
Time ago I suggested a friend to buy an Olympus Pen F. He did and was (still is) very satisfied. Planning to buy one myself ask him to show me in details his camera. And when my friend showed me the various menus, the controls, the customization, the...I decided that was a beautiful camera with excellent lenses but for sure not the camera for me!
This is why I'm happy with my M10 which I'll keep for many years...indenpendently from the new "toys" which will appear on the market. As I did with my Leica x1 which I still use after almost 8 years...
robert
PS: iso,aperture,time, focus...this is my photography life
RichC
Well-known
Today’s camera is just a lump of disposable consumer electronics - a device that will be obsolete in a couple years, to be regularly replaced and discarded. It’s no different to your computer, car or mobile phone. What’s the problem?
Complexity? That’s a myth. As pointed out above, anyone here can pick up a new camera and take a photo without the slightest confusion. You may not know what all the buttons and menus do. But what’s the problem? You don’t need to know, as you won’t use most of the functions. Reports tell us that people ignore most of what their devices do. Take smart phones: how many apps are on one? I’d guess between 20 and 40. Yet people typically use just the same 5 (which apps these are varies from person to person).
Cameras may seem complicated to some people if they have the wrong attitude towards these disposable consumer devices. Modern cameras are designed so that any one person has available the handful of functions they need to use the device exactly as they want - whether that’s just old-school shutter speed and ISO with everything else manual, or shooting video in PAL with upload via Bluetooth. You’re not meant to know about and use everything on a modern camera - if you don’t know what something does, you probably don’t need it!
The aim is flexibility. You can ignore most functions and keep the camera for years and years, treating it like a film camera. Or you can take advantage of new artificial-intelligence functions like face recognition and matrix metering, replacing the camera regularly (the Sony A7 series has a new version every 2 years like clockwork).
I personally now treat digital cameras as disposable devices, no different to my mobile phone; lenses are the items I invest in and I keep long term.
My attitude has changed. I once bought a new Leica M8 - seduced by the quality of its manufacture (brass, custom leather covering!), seduced by Leica’s “buy for a lifetime and upgrade” lie. I was an idiot then.
My current camera is a Sony A7R II. This meets my specific needs, including putting my lenses (all manual) at the fore. To me today, the camera is just a tool, so I went out of my way to pick up a cheap, beat up Sony but which still worked perfectly: I used to own a Nikon D800E until recently, but my current photography project is more suited to the more-modern Sony. My next project may be better suited to yet a different camera, so I may well replace the Sony.
It’s possibly worth noting that I use very few features that Sony provides. I shoot only in manual mode with manual lenses, and never record video. So, that’s pretty much only shutter speed, ISO and centre-weighted metering plus a few modern conveniences like image stabilisation). But that’s still entirely as intended by Sony: as I said, manufacturers aim for flexibility of use.
In short, today’s digital cameras are disposable. Stop thinking of them as objects. Photographs are like coffee - we know what we want, and savour it; the camera is simply the paper cup, to be thrown away when it’s no longer of use!
Complexity? That’s a myth. As pointed out above, anyone here can pick up a new camera and take a photo without the slightest confusion. You may not know what all the buttons and menus do. But what’s the problem? You don’t need to know, as you won’t use most of the functions. Reports tell us that people ignore most of what their devices do. Take smart phones: how many apps are on one? I’d guess between 20 and 40. Yet people typically use just the same 5 (which apps these are varies from person to person).
Cameras may seem complicated to some people if they have the wrong attitude towards these disposable consumer devices. Modern cameras are designed so that any one person has available the handful of functions they need to use the device exactly as they want - whether that’s just old-school shutter speed and ISO with everything else manual, or shooting video in PAL with upload via Bluetooth. You’re not meant to know about and use everything on a modern camera - if you don’t know what something does, you probably don’t need it!
The aim is flexibility. You can ignore most functions and keep the camera for years and years, treating it like a film camera. Or you can take advantage of new artificial-intelligence functions like face recognition and matrix metering, replacing the camera regularly (the Sony A7 series has a new version every 2 years like clockwork).
I personally now treat digital cameras as disposable devices, no different to my mobile phone; lenses are the items I invest in and I keep long term.
My attitude has changed. I once bought a new Leica M8 - seduced by the quality of its manufacture (brass, custom leather covering!), seduced by Leica’s “buy for a lifetime and upgrade” lie. I was an idiot then.
My current camera is a Sony A7R II. This meets my specific needs, including putting my lenses (all manual) at the fore. To me today, the camera is just a tool, so I went out of my way to pick up a cheap, beat up Sony but which still worked perfectly: I used to own a Nikon D800E until recently, but my current photography project is more suited to the more-modern Sony. My next project may be better suited to yet a different camera, so I may well replace the Sony.
It’s possibly worth noting that I use very few features that Sony provides. I shoot only in manual mode with manual lenses, and never record video. So, that’s pretty much only shutter speed, ISO and centre-weighted metering plus a few modern conveniences like image stabilisation). But that’s still entirely as intended by Sony: as I said, manufacturers aim for flexibility of use.
In short, today’s digital cameras are disposable. Stop thinking of them as objects. Photographs are like coffee - we know what we want, and savour it; the camera is simply the paper cup, to be thrown away when it’s no longer of use!
d_c
Established
Familiarity with a camera means that you can concentrate on getting the picture, and not get distracted by the camera. I've just bought an M262 and I'm enjoying re-learning to think with it like I did with my M6, after the distractions of other digital cameras. I'm the kind of person who would probably have bought an M-D if I'd been able to find a good one used.
Brian Atherton
Well-known
No, not an idiot, Bill.
I love simplicity, and wish with modern digital cameras that I could delete or park menu features I don’t need or want to a personal menu file. Why can’t I delete what I don’t use, such as video?
It bugs me that I am forced to plough through a pile of unnecessary crap to get to do a simple job.
It bugs me that menus are bloated and manuals are badly written, in some cases unfathomable.
It bugs me that buttons have multiple features, designed not for my convenience, but because manufacturers feel the need to load more and more features into a crowded space, necessitating the doubling or tripling up of the controls.
Grrr…
I love simplicity, and wish with modern digital cameras that I could delete or park menu features I don’t need or want to a personal menu file. Why can’t I delete what I don’t use, such as video?
It bugs me that I am forced to plough through a pile of unnecessary crap to get to do a simple job.
It bugs me that menus are bloated and manuals are badly written, in some cases unfathomable.
It bugs me that buttons have multiple features, designed not for my convenience, but because manufacturers feel the need to load more and more features into a crowded space, necessitating the doubling or tripling up of the controls.
Grrr…
shimokita
白黒
I went to a trade show in Yokohama last week... I looked at the Ilford paper samples photographed a few models and went for lunch... didn't seem to miss anything important. In retrospect I should have stopped by the CV booth and looked at the new Voigtländer NOKTON 50mm F1.2 ASPH in VM-mount, but it will eventually show up at the local camera shop.
MCTuomey
Veteran
Familiarity with your tools makes you better at your craft, sure. If a new camera is unfamiliar, your craft will suffer. So if you're always acquiring new cameras, your craft has probably suffered over time.
I know I've missed shots or taken subpar ones because of operator error associated with new(er) gear.
I know I've missed shots or taken subpar ones because of operator error associated with new(er) gear.
lynnb
Veteran
That's interesting Michael. I can see the point of that - I guess if I were a serious digital landscape guy I might well go down the same path with one of the Sonys or the D850.
I decided the same thing... wow, those Olympus menus are horrible.
ptpdprinter
Veteran
What could they possibly be doing in the menus?
Dogman
Veteran
As I was reading the original post and the replies I found myself smiling and nodding my head in agreement. I guess we're all idiots, aren't we? We get used to doing things in a certain way and when we have to change, it leaves us bewildered and feeling inadequate.
It's not just cameras either. I bought a "new-to-me" mid-sized SUV last summer. For the previous 12 years I had been driving the same Dodge Ram pickup truck, happily motoring along on local trips and from one coast to another, secure in my knowledge of how it operated. My new-to-me car has all the electronic and optional features I can imagine. It has a huge owner's manual for general operation of the car and a second thick owner's manual for what we used to call "the radio". It is intimidating. My wife refuses to drive the thing, preferring her old vehicle to learning operation of the new one. I've managed to figure out how to use the features I want and need but sometimes I feel like a fool when I can't make something work like it should because I've turned some feature off or on without meaning to. Sound familiar? It frequently happens with modern cameras.
I started using Canons in the late 90's, moving from Nikon when I wanted AF (actually "needed" since my vision had declined considerably). I used Canons as my main camera up until about two years ago when I started using Fujis. I stuck with Canon for so many years because I was familiar with their operation. Even when I switched to digital Canons, it was a fairly smooth transition because I only had to learn the digital functions--I already knew the camera's layouts and I could pick up any Canon SLR and figure it out without the instruction book. The transition to Fujis was a little harder but the camera's controls were familiar and more intuitive (I also used Leicas off and on since the 1980's). I felt good about myself until I bought a used Olympus OMD so I could use several older Olympus lenses I had around the house. The Olympus is a disaster for me. It's like the new car to my wife. I'm constantly having to stop and remember how to do something and remember which dial controls what. The Olympus produces some absolutely lovely photographs and using IBIS with a long lens is sweet but, oh my God!, it drives me nuts. It fulfills my needs right now but I really dislike using it.
Maybe it has to do with my age--I turned 70 last month--and I know I'm not as sharp as I was 30-40 years ago. But despite my age, I love how technology has improved so many aspects of our lives. I love digital photography. In fact, I like the look of digital photographs (when done really well) better than most film-based silver prints I see these days. I'm just skeptical of the need for technological improvements in some areas. Technology was supposed to make our lives better, not make them more complicated.
It's not just cameras either. I bought a "new-to-me" mid-sized SUV last summer. For the previous 12 years I had been driving the same Dodge Ram pickup truck, happily motoring along on local trips and from one coast to another, secure in my knowledge of how it operated. My new-to-me car has all the electronic and optional features I can imagine. It has a huge owner's manual for general operation of the car and a second thick owner's manual for what we used to call "the radio". It is intimidating. My wife refuses to drive the thing, preferring her old vehicle to learning operation of the new one. I've managed to figure out how to use the features I want and need but sometimes I feel like a fool when I can't make something work like it should because I've turned some feature off or on without meaning to. Sound familiar? It frequently happens with modern cameras.
I started using Canons in the late 90's, moving from Nikon when I wanted AF (actually "needed" since my vision had declined considerably). I used Canons as my main camera up until about two years ago when I started using Fujis. I stuck with Canon for so many years because I was familiar with their operation. Even when I switched to digital Canons, it was a fairly smooth transition because I only had to learn the digital functions--I already knew the camera's layouts and I could pick up any Canon SLR and figure it out without the instruction book. The transition to Fujis was a little harder but the camera's controls were familiar and more intuitive (I also used Leicas off and on since the 1980's). I felt good about myself until I bought a used Olympus OMD so I could use several older Olympus lenses I had around the house. The Olympus is a disaster for me. It's like the new car to my wife. I'm constantly having to stop and remember how to do something and remember which dial controls what. The Olympus produces some absolutely lovely photographs and using IBIS with a long lens is sweet but, oh my God!, it drives me nuts. It fulfills my needs right now but I really dislike using it.
Maybe it has to do with my age--I turned 70 last month--and I know I'm not as sharp as I was 30-40 years ago. But despite my age, I love how technology has improved so many aspects of our lives. I love digital photography. In fact, I like the look of digital photographs (when done really well) better than most film-based silver prints I see these days. I'm just skeptical of the need for technological improvements in some areas. Technology was supposed to make our lives better, not make them more complicated.
Michael Markey
Veteran
Well I don`t pay too much attention ....I just click and go
Adjusting the histogram , applying grad filters and making further adjustments
Applying different colour options .
What I see is a lot of in camera preparation before an exposure is made .
It just seems to be a preferred way of working .
Arbitrarium
Well-known
On a recent away day with work, I was asked if I'd take a group photo of all the staff because I "know about cameras". I was handed a Canon something something covered in buttons and screens and symbols and I just shrugged and gave it to someone else. Give me a focus ring, a shutter speed dial and an aperture dial and I'll take a picture. Give me a computer with a lens and I'd rather not even try.
I'll agree with you that focus turning the opposite way to what you're used to throws you off!
I'll agree with you that focus turning the opposite way to what you're used to throws you off!
Range-rover
Veteran
That's what I like about the original Canon 5D a lot less menus and a smaller
body. It's more like the Canon's of old, I think it's because of the smaller screen
on the back and I could pay attention to the subject and a lot less on the camera.
body. It's more like the Canon's of old, I think it's because of the smaller screen
on the back and I could pay attention to the subject and a lot less on the camera.
Dogman
Veteran
I only use proper glass and ceramic cups for my coffee.
Whether it uses film or a memory card, a camera has to fit the user. Paper cups and poorly designed user interfaces tend to impart an off taste to the flavor.
Franko
Established
I can't tell you where to find most of the "gee whiz" menus in my Fuji X10 but I can tell you what aperture my 35mm lens is set for by counting clicks - set the m or ft marks opposite f/22 on the dof scale and it's focused at 10 feet. All of that can be done by my seventy year old eyes without searching for my glasses. At the end of the day that's enough.