An inconvenient truth: environmental perspective film vs digital

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The pace of climate change exceeds previously studied natural cycles by an order of magnitude or so. This (and that it coincides with industrial development last 100-something years) is a core argument for human origin of it.

Now that doesn't exclude natural cause which previosuly didn't occur, or wasn't studied yet. However, the case of human influence seems very probable, and when you have to make a decision impacting the life of pretty much everyone here, it makes sense to play it safe. Simply because the losses aren't symmetrical: whatever hard blow economy takes from (hypothetically misguided) environmental restrictions is miniscule event compared to global climatic catastrophe.

As for lobbying, I can't see that much green influence. Lobbying takes money, and my feeling is that for a huge prosperous industry it is much easier to lobby their way through politicians, than for a group of tree-huggers.
 
Originally Posted by Jocko
History has taught us that when science becomes politicised, regardless of by whom, our understanding of complex truths seldom benefits.
Cheers, Ian

Maybe we could agree to agree to this, and then leave it alone. Like religion and politics (and this is politicised science) there is no way anyone is going to change anyone's mind on this, in this internet forum thread. Everyone go out and educate yourselves on this!
 
Ok, ok, the climate is changing, just like always, right? Was it ever possible to stop it or change it? :bang:

Now then, who gets to profit or survive from this normal change? Examples, in the past, water pump makers for windmills! An entire new growth industry.:D
Vikings in Greenland, had to return home, now, maybe another chance.:)

Or maybe NASA funding vs Nuclear Energy vs new windmills etc, etc.

The long markets can't price "the risk" of normal climate change (or anything else for sure :D ) so they get nervous :eek: then investors and the media pick up the mantra of "Global Warming". What better way to "Churn" the markets? :D

........ and I almost forgot, has anyone checked the rapid change in the earth's magnetic field recently?

......... or the water vapor disturbances at high altitudes due to concentrated commercial aircraft flights (6-7000 daily in the USA alone, and growing).

Regards. :angel:
 
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Jocko said:
History has taught us that when science becomes politicised, regardless of by whom, our understanding of complex truths seldom benefits.
Very true.

That said, as a scientist at least in some fields you sometimes come to the rather frustrating point where you realise that your field leaves you very few apolitical options of doing science. I wouldn't want to be a climatologist now. (I'm in Islamic Studies and find myself in a similarly disappointing situation.)

Jocko said:
I can assure you that there is very wide scepticism within the astronomical community regarding the predominantly human origin of global warming or climate change.

There is a vast amount that we simply do not know, especially regarding the role of the Sun [...]
That said, the fact that we don't have a proof that it's humans causing it (well, to the extent that science is capable of delivering proof anyway, as opposed to falsifiable hypotheses, etc.pp.) doesn't really free us from the obligation IMHO to at least try to behave in an ecologically responsible way. I realise that that may mean different things to us on an individual level; for example I consider myself an ecologically-minded person and at the same time a supporter of nuclear power generation, and I am sure that not everybody will agree with mere here. However, if the current debate has at least the minimal result that people start to include ecological considerations into their decision-making, that would already be a highly satisfying and rewarding result, regardless of the unpleasant aspects of the debate itself.
 
Jocko said:
History has taught us that when science becomes politicised, regardless of by whom, our understanding of complex truths seldom benefits.

Cheers, Ian

I fully agree.

I think David V. Bassett pretty much covers it in the below statement..


Though it has not come to our attention what effect the emissions from submarine volcanoes has on so-called "global warming", or whether the planetary conjunction(s) of this past April/May 2002 could have had any triggering effect on their erupting, we would agree that man's contribution of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases is considerably less than nature's. Nature contributes some 200 billion tons of CO2 to the atmosphere annually, while mankind contributes only 7 billion tons--a mere 3.5% of then total. In fact, research studies ['Discover',Dec.1994, p.32 & 'Science', vol. 230, p.164] indicate that antediluvian carbon dioxide concentrations were at least 8 to 10 times greater in the past--0.3% of Earth's atmospheric composition compared to today's 0.03%. Even if the level of certain greenhouse gases is increasing, this does not necessarily facilitate alleged global warming. Conversely, such an increase may be beneficial since most plants grow better with higher CO2 concentrations--which may explain the extensive biomass of fossilized vegetation and the massive coal seams of the rock record deposited by the Genesis Flood!

Consider also the following astute insights of Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif.) in a House speech entitled, "The Reality of 'Global Warming'", which he presented on June 12, 2001:

". . . global warming is not a scientific imperative. It is a politically-driven theory. . . .

Climate science seems to be a very recent entry into the pantheon of scientific study. Prior to 1980, there was only a handful of climatologists. Now they seem to be everywhere. Try to find a researcher on global warming who is not in some way tied to some sort of research contract by the Federal Government. Now, could it be that the reason for the increase in the numbers of global warming advocates has something to do with the access to government funding for research? . . .

How about water? Water comprises three-quarters of the world. Given the sheer volume of water on this planet, it surely has a tremendous impact on the temperature of the air. However, there are no accurate global ocean temperature readings that go back more than 10 years, and those that do are primarily based on satellite observations of surface temperatures. Those readings do not include deep water. In fact, we have absolutely zero understanding of deep water temperatures, and almost no understanding of deep water ocean currents. How can we possibly ignore that data when trying to calculate something as overwhelming as global warming? Global warming studies did not take into consideration the ocean temperature, and sometimes when they did it did not give them the right facts, so they just went on to something else. . . . most of the sources for CO2 and the other so-called greenhouse gases are naturally-occurring and not manmade. . . . Volcanic activity, for example, can add more to the atmosphere in a few weeks than all the internal combustion engines on this planet over the last decade. Termites and other insects, for example, are such a large source of CO2, and it [sic] is a larger source of CO2 than all of the industrial plants in the civilized world. Rotting wood is another offender that dwarfs any human contribution to this so-called threat.

I do not hear many calls coming from the people talking about global warming to bulldoze the rain forests. If they really believe in global warming, the rain forests, the rotting wood and the insects in those rain forests are the worst contributors."

David V. Bassett, M.S.
 
Anyway, isn't the film vs digi eco argument one of chemical pollution rather than green house gasses? Chemical pollution is something that can be measured and the toxic effects quantified without too much guesswork, I'd think. And in either case, the effects can be controlled with proper industrial processing and individual recycling techniques.
 
I do not hear many calls coming from the people talking about global warming to bulldoze the rain forests. If they really believe in global warming, the rain forests, the rotting wood and the insects in those rain forests are the worst contributors."
David V. Bassett, M.S.

The ignorance is astounding! Rainforests are significant natural carbon dioxide scrubbers, using up CO2 in photosynthesis and converting it to O2. The only significant way rainforests contribute to greenhouse gasses is due to their being burned in a futile effort by man to use the thin topsoil to support agriculture. This is an example of the depth/dirth of scientific thought on this side.

I can't contribute any more to this thread, I have to watch my blood pressure! :)
 
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You keep talking about people i dont know nor i can find on-line :) Who is David V. Bassett, M.S.? (What the M.S. stands for?)
 
Michiel said:
Honoustly, we could just as well be discussing quantum physics. We don't know. Why pretend?
We could. I pretend to know a bit of that:)
Hopefully more than environmental impact of digital and film cameras/technology. Or at least that's what my employer thinks;)
 
FrankS said:
I do not hear many calls coming from the people talking about global warming to bulldoze the rain forests. If they really believe in global warming, the rain forests, the rotting wood and the insects in those rain forests are the worst contributors."

David V. Bassett, M.S.

The ignorance is astounding! Rainforests are significan natural carbon dioxide scrubbers, using up CO2 in photosynthesis and converting it to O2. The only significant way rainforests contribute to greenhouse gasses is due to their being burned in a futile effort by man to use the thin topsoil to support agriculture.

I can't contribute any more to this thread, I have to watch my blood pressure! :)

Frank,
I think the point is that jungles only store CO2. They don't eliminate it. When they die, either of natural causes or by the intervention of "evil men raping the world," they give that CO2 back.
The representative is only refering to half of the cycle...just as jungles scrubbing CO2 is only half of the cycle.
 
Here's the solution.
Use Diafine. Much cleaner than any other developer, due to the long lifetime;)
And reuse your developer.
And ride a bike when you go out to buy your film.
 
FrankS said:
I do not hear many calls coming from the people talking about global warming to bulldoze the rain forests. If they really believe in global warming, the rain forests, the rotting wood and the insects in those rain forests are the worst contributors."
David V. Bassett, M.S.

The ignorance is astounding! Rainforests are significant natural carbon dioxide scrubbers, using up CO2 in photosynthesis and converting it to O2. The only significant way rainforests contribute to greenhouse gasses is due to their being burned in a futile effort by man to use the thin topsoil to support agriculture. This is an example of the depth/dirth of scientific thought on this side.

I can't contribute any more to this thread, I have to watch my blood pressure! :)

Yes but it's O2 that’s destroying the ozone layer, just don’t let the Japanese know whales fart methane or we’ll be right back at the beginning saving the whale that's eating all that plankton……god knows what effect that will have

PS I’m not being 100% serious Frank
PPS whale meat is very good for hypotension
 
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dazedgonebye said:
Frank,
I think the point is that jungles only store CO2. They don't eliminate it. When they die, either of natural causes or by the intervention of "evil men raping the world," they give that CO2 back.
The representative is only refering to half of the cycle...just as jungles scrubbing CO2 is only half of the cycle.


Just to reply, calmly: Yes the rainforests store it, so that it is not loose in the atmosphere. New trees grow and old trees die. The cyle and the storage continues.

Forget the glass, pass the bottle! :)
 
colyn said:
I think Al Gore is full of crap....

As a long term resident of Tennessee I can confirm this. He rides around in his SUV and travels in his private jet. Does that tell you something and during his last run for pres he lost in his own district. I'm an independent voter and vote the man not the party but this guy is totally full of it.

He talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk. I'm not saying the plannet can't be cleaned up because it certainly can but the guys screaming the most should lead by example.

By the way I read an article a couple of years ago saying the manufacturing of digital chips was more an environmental issue than film.
 
iml said:
... but the consensus that human action is a major contributory factor to climate change seems to be hardening.

Personally I'd rather read the science than take much notice of a bunch of people speculating on an internet forum :)

Ian
Hi.

Unfortunately, consensus ist not the basis of the scientific thinking. Scientific method and proper research is.

There is no consensus about the efficacy of a drug if you want it approved by the FDA; you have to show painfully obtained hard-core scientific evidence, otherwise it will fail. There is no consensus about how to build a plane, there are standarized calculations and equations in aerodynamics.

There's consensus in art, humanities, politics, democracy... but there's no science in them.

It is sad to recognize, but environmental science has been politized and scrutinized by public opinion to the point that many scientists (really) preffer to be part of the "good guys".

Even in this 21st century, It's hard to think different than the majority.

Ikram Antaki (Sirian-French-Mexican Politologists) once said: "The big failure of democracy is that the majority who is wrong, rules over the minority which is right..."


Regards !!!
 
pedro.m.reis said:
You keep talking about people i dont know nor i can find on-line :) Who is David V. Bassett, M.S.?

He's a scientist who know more about the subject than any of us..

pedro.m.reis said:
(What the M.S. stands for?)

Master of Science
 
It isn't about the today's rain forests. It's about burning millions of years worth of forest that has been locked up in coal and oil in just a couple of hundred years.
 
Tom Harrell said:
I'm not getting into the politics nor the political hate mongering! True science should never be a political football! I personally wonder though about these things: a) have we not had ice ages before? b) where did the glaciers go that once covered great portions of North America? c) was that global warming that caused them to disappear? d) if it was global warming what caused that? e) what caused Leif Ericson to give Greenland it's name, was it because it had green grass and no glaciers much to speak of? f) where killed the dinosaurs, was it not a global climate change?


Absolutely correct. Montana and Wyoming were tropical and the area in Tennessee where I live was under an ocean. The earth has never stopped changing from the moment it was formed.
 
Nick R. said:
It isn't about the today's rain forests. It's about burning millions of years worth of forest that has been locked up in coal and oil in just a couple of hundred years.

Yep, I think it was the model A Ford that Henry Ford made to run on ethanol as he didn’t think fossil oil was sustainable, haven’t we come a long way in the last century
:rolleyes:
 
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