Another irregular production Sonnar

[TenEleven]

Zeiss Leica M39 Sonnar 8,5cm f2 T 2851295 jy055* | eBay

Entdecken Sie Zeiss Leica M39 Sonnar 8,5cm f2 T 2851295 jy055* in der groÃen Auswahl bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!

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Here is an example of a Sonnar 8,5cm f2 new on Ebay. Not only 5cm Sonnars were target of copies. The engraved numbers are all fake. Even the name ring is not from CZJ. Interesting is the black bottom of the lens and the huge screws. We already have seen such details in the Sonnar 5,8cm examples. The Sonnar 5cm that @dexdog posted is the same. It has a lot of similarities with some Sonnar 5,8cm copies. For me the case is clear. It is the same manufacturer. All of those lenses might be post-war black market lenses.

What puzzles me most is how similar all of those copies look like. Sure they look like if they were made by Carl Zeiss Jena. But that was to be expected because they have to look like the original Sonnar. But they look like coming from the same branch to me. But the amount is huge. You find Sonnar 5cm f/1.5, Sonnar 5,8cm / 6cm f/1.5 and Sonnar 8,5cm f2 from this manufacturer. If there were a lot of different sources I would expect some minor details to change a lot. Especially the engraving would change between a lot of those copies. But it isn't. This was no shack behind a bombed living house. It was no solitary craftsmen fixing some dumped parts on a bench in a cellar. My gut feeling is this was a factory.

I have a copy of this kind of lens. I actually shared it here on RFF before saying basically the exact same thing - that this one the 5.8cm "StuVi" Sonnars and also the 5.8cm LTM Biotars all came from the same likely factory. The similarities also do not stop on the outside - the construction is similar inside as well.

Oh and both the 5.8cm Sonnar and the 8.6cm I have suffer from an "optimistic" aperture index, where the actual brightness is actually greater than what is engraved. E.g. f/8 is more akin to f/7.1 and so on...

That being said, in the case of the 8.5cm Sonnar the quality of the mechanical mount exceeds that of what CZJ built, which to me is kind of funny. Not only does it focus more closely but it does so reliably on any camera. A real 8.5cm LTM can be a bit of a crapshoot to find a good copy.

Edit here's a quick picture, not mine but mine is 100% identical in construction. Note the screws and the arrangement of the mount. Also the screw through the focus scale ring.


Also of course what you stated aligns with the public declaration of Zeiss regarding the 5.8cm Sonnars - namely that many of these counterfeiters were prosecuted and/or arrested. I very much doubt that they would have gone after an individual making maybe 10-15 lenses.

 

[dexdog]

An update to the oddball fake Sonnar depicted in post #117, above. Given that the Contax lens barrel and mount were outta spec, and I did not want to have to hammer the damn thing outta my Amedeo adapter should I try to use it again, I decided on drastic surgery. I transplanted the CZJ lens elements into a 1968 KMZ J-8 optical block and LTM mount. I purchased this lens on eBay a year or so ago for $20 as a parts lens, non-working. I discovered that the only reason the lens did not work was because the middle lens group was not screwed in tight, the thing rattled when I shook it.


I took the KMZ lens apart and swapped in the CZJ lens groups, they fit really well, the only exception was that the CZJ front element was about 0.5mm smaller than the KMZ version so i had to be careful to get it centered when I screwed the thing tight. Since the threads of the name ring on the KMZ barrel did not fit the fake CZJ name ring, I stuck it in place with a few dabs of hot melt glue. Not elegant, but it works now! Tried it out on my Sony a7iii, distance scale is accurate at 1 meter and 5 meters, infinity focus works, too. I did not even have to tweak the shims.


This lens will confuse the hell out of anyone who might pick it up in the future. I like this arrangement because I now have a usuable lens and the name ring reminds me of how I got here.

 

[dexdog]

Another odd looking lens, has a serial number similar to the lens that Rauber first highlighted in post 100 of this thread that I bought. I think that the one currently on eBay is 2877746 (hard to tell from pics), while the weird salvaged 5cm/f2 in Contax mount that I have is 2877726. Another salvage job? This one might acctually be f1.5 given the size of the front element. Different arrangement of screws on LTM body.

5mm f1.5 Sonnar LTM Carl Zeiss Lens | eBay

This 50mm f1.5 Sonnar Carl Zeiss lens is in great condition for its age. The focus and aperture rings are smooth. This lens will be a great lens to add.

www.ebay.com

I was very surprised that this lens sold for $1226. I have never bought an authentic CZJ WW2-era Sonnar in LTM for anything close to this amount.

 

[TenEleven]

I was very surprised that this lens sold for $1226. I have never bought an authentic CZJ WW2-era Sonnar in LTM for anything close to this amount.

The prices, not just for LTM Sonnars - have gone absolutely nuts recently if you ask me.
Actually the Zeiss stuff has fared better (still cheaper) than a lot of other lenses and bodies...

Contax mount stuff has gone up in price as well, but nowhere near as bad. It seems to fly under the radar... I guess due to the "trouble" of adapting it or people just not knowing... lucky me.

 

[Räuber]

Found another case.

Carl Zeiss Jena SONNAR 5cm 50 mm 1:1.5 1.5 T red Cine Objektiv lens Arri Mount | eBay

Vordere linse hat Kratzern. Zum Verkauf steht ein Objektiv Verkauft wird ein sehr seltenes Cine Objektiv ! Objektiv hat altersbedingte Gebraucht Spuren, Linsen und sind unrein! Zustand technisch Objektiv.

www.ebay.de

This is an Arriflex 35 Sonnar 5cm f/1.5. It is a 1950 East German copy. But it is special in many ways. It has 6 of those rounded grippers. it has an aperture scale and focus scale with sideways turned numbers. If you want to know how a regular Arri Sonnar looks like than just look here.

Zeiss Sonnar 50mm F/1.5 - regular Versions and Specs

This page contains an overview over all regular versions of the Zeiss Sonnar 5cm f/1,5 and some of its Soviet, Japanese and Todays der...

vividlyfading.blogspot.com

Yeah, ok. Maybe CZJ changed the body design yet again with some useful features. That was what I thought first. Then I looked closer and found the treacherous 3 and 4 (and 0) at the body. The name ring shows the typical Carl Zeiss Jena font style. But the engraved numbers of the body look like Zeiss-Opton. And if you look at the mount you see the huge screws you can see at @TenEleven 's black Biotar example too.

It looks to me like another custom job of our favorite fakers factory done in the 1950ies. Looks like a nice lens though. Glass is pretty clean. And the sideways numbers are easier to read. The silver grippers make it more easy to use the lens for filming.

 

[TenEleven]

Found another case.

Carl Zeiss Jena SONNAR 5cm 50 mm 1:1.5 1.5 T red Cine Objektiv lens Arri Mount | eBay

Vordere linse hat Kratzern. Zum Verkauf steht ein Objektiv Verkauft wird ein sehr seltenes Cine Objektiv ! Objektiv hat altersbedingte Gebraucht Spuren, Linsen und sind unrein! Zustand technisch Objektiv.

www.ebay.de

This is an Arriflex 35 Sonnar 5cm f/1.5. It is a 1950 East German copy. But it is special in many ways. It has 6 of those rounded grippers. it has an aperture scale and focus scale with sideways turned numbers. If you want to know how a regular Arri Sonnar looks like than just look here.

Zeiss Sonnar 50mm F/1.5 - regular Versions and Specs

This page contains an overview over all regular versions of the Zeiss Sonnar 5cm f/1,5 and some of its Soviet, Japanese and Todays der...

vividlyfading.blogspot.com

Yeah, ok. Maybe CZJ changed the body design yet again with some useful features. That was what I thought first. Then I looked closer and found the treacherous 3 and 4 (and 0) at the body. The name ring shows the typical Carl Zeiss Jena font style. But the engraved numbers of the body look like Zeiss-Opton. And if you look at the mount you see the huge screws you can see at @TenEleven 's black Biotar example too.

It looks to me like another custom job of our favorite fakers factory done in the 1950ies. Looks like a nice lens though. Glass is pretty clean. And the sideways numbers are easier to read. The silver grippers make it more easy to use the lens for filming.

Assuming all these lenses have the same source, which I guess is a pretty safe bet given the similarities across mounts and versions. We can say that the key take-away from all this is that these guys absolutely were no strangers to lens-making and how cameras in general work. I assume that most deficiencies stem from the fact that good raw materials were scarce and the machine tools were likely either partially broken or worn out due to the war.

I mean this work was done in a likely bombed-out Germany. So it's not like they could just look stuff up or quickly test these lenses on a camera and then come back and make adjustments. These guys knew their optics, cameras and lenses.

 

[Räuber]

Assuming all these lenses have the same source, which I guess is a pretty safe bet given the similarities across mounts and versions. We can say that the key take-away from all this is that these guys absolutely were no strangers to lens-making and how cameras in general work. I assume that most deficiencies stem from the fact that good raw materials were scarce and the machine tools were likely either partially broken or worn out due to the war.

I mean this work was done in a likely bombed-out Germany. So it's not like they could just look stuff up or quickly test these lenses on a camera and then come back and make adjustments. These guys knew their optics, cameras and lenses.

Lets not forget that the Soviets took a lot of machines and tools to the FSU. They left only a minimum and CZJ needed to build up new production lines, new tools and machines.

What I find interesting is the time window. The lens block of this lens is original. The serial is authentic and dates it to 1950 (5 years after the end of WWII) (it might have left CZJ 1951). We have no way to say when were those 5,8cm Sonnars build but we know that 1948 Zeiss issued a warning. That pushes the time window after the Soviet relocation that was done from 1946 to 1947. The examples that I have seen so far used East German Sonnars as a base. This could mean that it was located in East Germany. On the other hand Zeiss Oberkochen started very late in 1950(?). When this custom manufacturer vanished at the begin of the 50ies it could mean that the West German Zeiss was behind it. Difficult to say without further information.

 

[raid]

Isn't it interesting to read such discussions by "lens history detectives".

 

[Räuber]

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/auction/yahoo/input/p1142916397/

Here a LTM Sonnar 5cm f/1.5 again with red aperture dot. The serial of 2767925 puts it in a production batch (62) where I only know one other lens yet. This one is a typical example where the glass is from CZJ. When you compare the fonts you will notice that the name ring was engraved by CZJ. But the aperture ring and focus ring where engraved by others. So it was finished outside of CZJ or maybe way later. Very clean work nevertheless and original lens block.

An interesting detail is the shape of the ears (the small aperture ring grippers). The grooves have the wrong number but the borders are concavely rounded instead of straight. I have not seen many of those. I only can remember one Contax Sonnar. It is 2768705 right next to this example.

 

[dexdog]

So, I ended up buying the lens that Rauber has discussed above. Engraving on name ring is a bit irregular, not horrible but not as clean as most lenses. Name ring is set very deep into the front of the optical block. Red dot on aperture ring.

 

[dexdog]

No shims in the lens, has a threaded variable ring screwed tight against the bottom of the fixture that holds the aperture. This fixture is different than most because it is shiny aluminum, not brass or alloy. I think that my 267 series 5cm f1.5 has this shiny fixture too, but I cannot check because it is currently on loan to Brian's House of Fine Cameras. Also, no partial CZJ serial number on rear triplet


Machining on the aperture ears is pretty crude, looks like someone was using very worn tool to make the cuts. You can see where part of the ear was shaved away.



The machining on the threads that allow the rear triplet to be screwed into the optical block is pretty rough, the edges of the threads look like tiny hacksaw blades using a 10x hand lens. The rear triplet screwed in OK, but it was crunchy and I had to apply more torque than normal to get it seated all the way. I am wondering if another dull or worn tool was used.

 

[dexdog]

The lens is pretty much spot on using the one meter/wide open test, and it focuses to infinity just fine, around 300 meters or so. That said, it may be the softest Sonnar I own when used wide open. A pic of a somewhat grim sample of books from the bookcase in my office. Point of focus is on the S in Forsaken. The glass in the lens is in very good condition, front element is free of even fine "cleaning marks", rear triplet has a few zeiss bubbles in the glass, All lens surfaces are coated, and the color of the coating looks just like a 272 series Sonnar.


This pic is at f1.5 about 2 meters away from the big bee on the phlox flower. I used a tripod, focused using the 11x viewfinder on my Sony a7iii.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

No shims in the lens, has a threaded variable ring screwed tight against the bottom of the fixture that holds the aperture. This fixture is different than most because it is shiny aluminum, not brass or alloy. I think that my 267 series 5cm f1.5 has this shiny fixture too, but I cannot check because it is currently on loan to the Brian Sweeney House of Fine Cameras. Also, no partial CZJ serial number on rear triplet


Machining on the aperture ears is pretty crude, looks like someone was using very worn tool to make the cuts. You can see where part of the ear was shaved away.



The machining on the threads that allow the rear triplet to be screwed into the optical block is pretty rough, the edges of the threads look like tiny hacksaw blades using a 10x hand lens. The rear triplet screwed in OK, but it was crunchy and I had to apply more torque than normal to get it seated all the way. I am wondering if another dull or worn tool was used.

Yes it is! And I just checked, it is near identical to this one. The ears have more ridges, and both look a lot like transition lenses I've seen with later serial numbers.
Someday I'll really retire.

 

[dexdog]

In response to a recent request from a forum member, I attempted to take take apart an old Contax mount 5cm f1.5 Sonnar, serial number as seen in first photo. I discovered when I tried to remove the rear triplet that fixture for the rear lens group has the three sets
of notched rings instead of two as is normal for Sonnars prior to WW2 (looks similar to my post-WW2 CZJ Sonnar with 305 serial number).

 

[dexdog]

The outer-most ring in the second picture in previous post unscrews from the rear of the optical fixture, and serves to hold the rear triplet in place. The rear triplet itself is press-fit into place in the rear of the optical fixture
Rear triplet

Aluminum ring (i.e. the outer-most ring) that holds the press-fit rear lens group fixture in place. The aluminum ring is very fragile, I bent it trying to remove it, gonna be hard to get it round enough and flat enough to screw into place. Fortunately, the press fit of the rear triplet fixture is very tight, so I think that there is almost no chance it is gonna fall out if I cannot get the outermost ring back in place. I had to put a lens spanner in the slots in the triplet fixture and tap in back into place with a 2 ounce nylon mallet.

 

[TenEleven]

Here's two Sonnar lenses that I stumbled on recently.

I think the f2 is more interesting, so it goes first.
According to the serial number of the 1.6million range it should be:

• rigid (not collapsible)
• brass and silver mount (transition era from black & nickel)
• angled name/beauty ring
• uncoated

I in fact have one and it is what you expected. I guess this one went back to the factory to receive "T" coating and they also then remounted it in a collapsible mount?
I very much doubt that this is 3rd party work since a black and nickel (and still black/nickel/silver) lens fetches much more on certain sites...

Edit thinking about it again you would have to also have to re-manufacture the name ring as the name ring of the early lenses is angled akin to the Sonnar f1.5. Very strange.



This one is not as exciting - just a relatively early 1.6million f/1.5 Sonnar that has been very professionally remounted into LTM. This one went home with me.



It is uncoated. The focus and the aperture were totally gummed up and the lens was unusable as-is. So I gave it a service.
Everything is made from brass and the lens is quite hefty. The focus mount is scaled in feet, it looks like a custom job and focuses down to a sliver under 4 feet, not the usual 3 1/2 or 3 feet. Perhaps stability was a concern? There were no washers and the focus and register distance are perfect-as-is. The lens body itself had the appropriate repeat serial numbers but bore no marks of modification. I expected the rear triplet to be filed down since the focus helical is not sloped.

The focus mount also had "No. 1" with the "1" circled very neatly engraved within. I assume it's more likely a very well done period (1930s?) DIY conversation by @Sonnar Brian kindred spirit rather than a custom Zeiss job. Still a nice lens.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

@TenEleven
Thiele shows the batch of 1900 5cm F2 Sonnars running from 1629201 to 1631100 as being completed in January 1935. I own one of these, a few hundred from yours- mine "was" just like your collapsible before converting to LTM using a J-8 focus mount. I also modified the J-8 mount for 0.8m close focus.

 

[TenEleven]

@TenEleven
Thiele shows the batch of 1900 5cm F2 Sonnars running from 1629201 to 1631100 as being completed in January 1935. I own one of these, a few hundred from yours- mine "was" just like your collapsible before converting to LTM using a J-8 focus mount. I also modified the J-8 mount for 0.8m close focus.

I actually haven't bought the collapsible f2 Sonnar because I felt I already had plenty coated f2 Sonnars, but that's interesting. Officially the collapsible mounts should not have started until 1.7million which according to thiele (and from what I have seen) is the earliest for them.

In fact I have a 1.69 ... something that is black and nickel with a chromed aperture ring. The construction is different as the name ring is sloped and the lens uses a stand-off ring to make it fit inside the f1.5 shell. I assume this was a sort of interim solution until they completed the collapsible all chrome design.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

@TenEleven it will not be the first mistake in Thiele. I suspect serial Numbers were allocated in Lots, and lots overlapped during the periods of production. We see different versions of lenses made within the same lot. I have one 5cm F1.5 Sonnar, authentic wartime in Contax mount- with a Serial Number not listed in Thiele. The block of serial numbers is simply missing.

 

[Räuber]

I actually haven't bought the collapsible f2 Sonnar because I felt I already had plenty coated f2 Sonnars, but that's interesting. Officially the collapsible mounts should not have started until 1.7million which according to thiele (and from what I have seen) is the earliest for them.

In fact I have a 1.69 ... something that is black and nickel with a chromed aperture ring. The construction is different as the name ring is sloped and the lens uses a stand-off ring to make it fit inside the f1.5 shell. I assume this was a sort of interim solution until they completed the collapsible all chrome design.

Thiele is not a great source when it comes to body variations. You should have a look into my spreadsheets if you want to see more clearly what was going on during the production batches.



The first Chrome collapsible Sonnars can be found with a 1.629M serial. This might seem odd but as some others have pointed out there seem to be multiple production lines in Jena that run in parallel. This 1629M batch (26th production run of 5cm f2) of lenses is a real mess.



You see there are Nickel lenses with black band, Contaflex Sonnars and even a rigid Chrome Sonnar in this batch. A possible explanation could be that this batch was halted or processed very slowly so that the start was done with Nickel but when this batch took to long it was switched to the collapsible body and was finished.

I have a 1.630M f2 Sonnar too. It truely is an authentic Zeiss Jena lens.