Another M8 as backup, or an M6TTL?

[aniMal]

So, the M8 just gets better and better for me... It is just the camera I want to work with - and I have no serious doubts about it...

But; as I have started using the M8 for all the work I can, I feel I need a backup or second one...

I will probably end up having two in the not too distant future.

Should I then buy an M6TTL in the meantime? It is less than half the price, and would give me the opportunity of working seamlessly both with digital and film... Then I can wait a little while for any new M8-2 or whatever else might pop up...!

I find it a hard choice, since spending money on an M6TTL would block me from getting another M8 soon. On the other hand I might get that second M8 just before something new pops up in the world of DRFs...

(Need to add that older M´s are not an option any longer, once I get the new direction of the shutter weel into my system I do not want to confuse myself...)

What would you guys do?

 

[Doug]

Tough situation, but for me serious cameras go in pairs, so I'd just chin-up and get the second M8 soon. A film camera as backup to even a similar digital is not exactly seamless.

I doubt an M8-2 or M9 any time soon, or a smaller CL-like digital either. Leica's hint of significant product introduction in the Fall is likely IMO to be another "upgrade" item and/or lenses. On a related note I don't consider the current shutter or LCD to be "defective" and in need of upgrading.

I would say that my silver M8 has been joined by a black twin, except I wouldn't want to admit publicly to having two M8s 😱

Good luck in your acquisition decision!

 

[Richard Marks]

The TTL is really not worth the effort in my opinion. I do not use the TTL mode on my M8. You should be able to pick up a reasonable classic M6 for relatively little money. The rangefinder is more flare prone but its not a deal breaker. Arguably without the extra electronics and extra bulk it has even less to go wrong. Also its quite nice to have the option of film not just as a back up agaonst technical failure but as an alternative. There are still times when film gives the M8 a good run for its money. Not in terms of resolution, but in terms of tonal range. You may decide on a second M8 but I still would not wish to be without a film option. It is a back up for when lighting conditions are digi hostile. Oh and the battery in an M6 classic lasts and lasts and even when its gone you can still shoot. Just my opinion. If I had funds for a second M8 id probably spend it on glass.

Richard

 

[aniMal]

Well - I tend to agree that serious cameras come in pairs... Also when it comes to servicing and such - that way it should really be three!

I have been using other Ms a lot before, but as I stated they are not an option any longer. The rotation of the shutter wheel is hardwired in me, and although I cope quite well with the M8 already, there are still occasions where I turn it the wrong way... So, in terms of film Ms the only options are M7 and M6TTL...

I even plan on selling my R2A for that reason - even though I know I will miss it for some reason!

I did some calculations tonight - and if I run through 50-100 films a second hand M6TTL would cost me as much as an M8! That is without any breakdowns on the M8 of course.

Perhaps I should wait for the news at Photokina, although I agree that it will probably not be something totally fantastic in terms of improvement on the M8.

I do agree that there are many reasons for using film, I still do a lot of work on film. I have a complete set of Mamiya RZ67 - and then resolution and tonal range is just in another league totally! But 35mm on the other hand, I have somehow lost touch with it... Digital comes out better in 9 out of 10 situations, so an M6TTL as backup would probably be used as little as possible...

Anyway, tomorrow is a busy day with 7 models in studio - so I just look forward to really working with the M8 once again... ;-) Later in the day I will probably calculate how much I can get from selling various stuff - which will tilt me even closer towards getting a second M8...

 

[Eric T]

If you can afford a second M8, get it. I carry either an M1 or a IIIf along with my M8. The problem is that I barely touch the film Leicas. I am sure I would use a second M8 more often.
Eric

 

[Keith]

An excellent temporary match for the M8 would be a Hexar RF IMO. I find the auto advance of the Konica makes it a very similar camera to shoot with after using the M8. I took the two of them out to an event as a pair one night a while ago ... I was using the M8 with a 35mm Nokton and had the Hexar loaded with Neopan400 @ 1600 with a 75mm Heliar for some closer black and whites. It was a great combination and switching back and forth was seamless!

[edit] ... considering what you can pick up a Hexar for you may find yourself keeping it when you're flush enough for another M8 body! 🙂

 

[Roger Hicks]

M8. I use both M8 and film Leicas (MP - M4-P - M2) and the crop factor guarantees that switching between the two ISN'T seamless.

Incidentally I find the shutter dial much less of a problem than I expected, but the baseplate much more of a problem (the pin's on the wrong end on the M8, apart from being the wrong shape).

Cheers,

Roger

 

[infrequent]

@roger - how do you use multiple film Ms? are they each paired / married to particular lenses? i am guessing you don't carry all of them at the same time. surely the MP and M8 would cover all bases, no?!

 

[Richard Marks]

Well - I tend to agree that serious cameras come in pairs... Also when it comes to servicing and such - that way it should really be three!

I have been using other Ms a lot before, but as I stated they are not an option any longer. The rotation of the shutter wheel is hardwired in me, and although I cope quite well with the M8 already, there are still occasions where I turn it the wrong way... So, in terms of film Ms the only options are M7 and M6TTL...

I even plan on selling my R2A for that reason - even though I know I will miss it for some reason!

I did some calculations tonight - and if I run through 50-100 films a second hand M6TTL would cost me as much as an M8! That is without any breakdowns on the M8 of course.

Perhaps I should wait for the news at Photokina, although I agree that it will probably not be something totally fantastic in terms of improvement on the M8.

I do agree that there are many reasons for using film, I still do a lot of work on film. I have a complete set of Mamiya RZ67 - and then resolution and tonal range is just in another league totally! But 35mm on the other hand, I have somehow lost touch with it... Digital comes out better in 9 out of 10 situations, so an M6TTL as backup would probably be used as little as possible...

Anyway, tomorrow is a busy day with 7 models in studio - so I just look forward to really working with the M8 once again... ;-) Later in the day I will probably calculate how much I can get from selling various stuff - which will tilt me even closer towards getting a second M8...

If you have the funds for an M8 and you are relying on M8's for your income then its the obvious thing to do. Obviously the RZ is an increadible film option for studio, but not that easy to use for more contemporary studio stuff and certainly agony in my hands for location or wedding stuff. I suppose a digital option is always there with the RZ too 😱.Just to mention when I got my M8 it was something of a renaissance and i sold my MP to get more glass. Fine for about 8 months, but ultimately i do need film. Thats when i bought an M6. I really never notice the shutter wheel thing moving in the wrong direction as my M8 is auto and i go into a different 'maual mode' with the M6.

Not sure about M6 + 100 rolls of film = M8. The M6 in ten years will have a higher residual value then the M8 and will probably have earnt its keep in other ways.

Best wishes

Richard

 

[aniMal]

Lots of good points here - thanks everybody!

As of now, I use Nikons for a living - and the M8 and Mamiya for projects that I plan on living from in the future... I could switch to using just an M8 for my money-jobs, but it takes some planning. I would need a 12mm, and probably a 77 center filter for that purpose. Checking out where I can get it now... ;-)

I think the simple solution is just to keep my R2A and use that alongside the M8. I tend to use that in A mode anyway, and then I will not have an issue with the shutter dial...

Hopefully something happens in the meantime then - either second hand prices of M8 falling somewhat, or something new hitting the market. And then prices of the M8 will fall anyway!

The RZ is a really great camera for me I have found. It is huge, complicated and cumbersome. It is a studio-camera, and yet I use it handheld and outdoors a lot of the time. Why? Simply because I see that I get very different pictures from it, just because I have to slow down a lot... It simply brings out a different way of looking for motifs for me.

That is possibly the best thing with the M8 - it affects the way I work somewhat the same way as a film M does. Which is what first brought me into rangefinders years ago; that I need to take complete control of everything. It keeps me in top shape when it comes to viewing and assessing light, range and DOF. In a way I feel it makes me visualize each picture in detail before even reaching the camera - and that is something I really feel I lose out on with the D300 I use everyday...

 

[Richard Marks]

It is interesting the way you describe how a certain camera unfluences style of picture taking. Obviously there are lots of classic mechanical cameras which imprint themselves in that manner. I think the M8 is probably close to unique in that respect in the digital era.

Richard

 

[aniMal]

Yes - I totally agree... And I think being able to control all the parameters of photography manually and with intent will be what sets photographers apart from everbody else in the years to come.

If there was something like a digital FM2 half the price of the M8 I would have bought two + a battered old M6 on the side!

Or even better - an M8 without any menus or preview screens, just an ISO wheel added. Recording straight into the SD card in DNG... I bet it would bring me the same pictures as at present - and keep me even more focused when working!

 

[Richard Marks]

I can not tell you how many times i have thought about a digital FM2! That would be very nice. The older manual focus Nikon lenses are still wonderful. Personally I hate auto focus, and the appeal of the M8 for me is digital + manual focus. The current crop of DSLR's I realise can be used on manual focus but I would need a split screen microprism and the AF lenses are not as nice for manual focus.

The other project which did not quite come off commercially was the DMR digital back for the R8/R9. The concept was very appealing. It was still a fairly bulky affair but you get the duality of film and digital with manual focus and superb optics. I am told DMR backs are still very sought after.

Personally i do not find the fairly basic menus and stuff a problem on the M8 and I think if Leicas initial digital M offering did not have these things they would have had an even rougher ride from their critics. Still I like your minimalist idea of writing staright onto the SD card in DNG. But i really function almost as two different photographers with film and digital. I am trigger happy with digital and shoot as if every frame is my last with film. Something about the lack of cost of a digital exposure would still stop me from being quite as careful. It is difficult to explain. Presumably along this line SD cards should have smaller capacity and take a few hours to process in a lab! But then we might as well use film. I actually value digital playback for what it is, and accept that my work is in a different style when i shoot digitally. At the end of the day as long as you get the shot!

I did a shoot for a couple who wanted pics of there kids surrounded by bluebells. There really only was one chance to get it and the confidence of having digital playback was invaluable. I might well have blown it with film as the lighting was very tricky.

Richard

 

[aniMal]

I know that having a digital camera without playback is some kind of day dream... Of course it is needed - and part of what digital is.

Just came back from the studio - 7 models with different costumes in a few hours. Filled up 4GB - all my cards as I normally shoot very sparingly even with digital.

As far as I am concerned, I do not shoot very differently with digital and film. I do shoot more of course, but just something like 20-30% more... And that is mostly when there is some tricky light or something.

What I really like using the M8 also in a studio, is that I can keep the focus on something like 2-3 meters getting the entire set sharp anyway. Used a new 35 today, and it is much better keeping a check on the focus from time to time than it is to keep focusing each and every frame.

It seems that I will tilt towards a second M8 if I manage to keep the studio work getting better with using it. Today I needed a wide-angle for one shot, and it is very tedious to change lens and attach a viewfinder. Needed to change the radio transmitter with a cube + sync cord as well...

 

[Roger Hicks]

@roger - how do you use multiple film Ms? are they each paired / married to particular lenses? i am guessing you don't carry all of them at the same time. surely the MP and M8 would cover all bases, no?!

Ideal situation: 2x MP, one with 35, one with 75. Other lenses in pockets. Because I don't have 2x MP, it's MP + A. N. Other -- M4-P or M2+Rapidwinder (a Leicavit lives on my MP). The other M2 is basically an historical accident that I only use occasionally for e.g. IR film tests. I keep thinking of selling the M4-P and one M2 in order to afford another MP. But if I did, my wife would borrow it. Permanently.

Now add an M8. I'd need 24/25mm (= 36/37mm, and I don't have 24/25mm) and 50 (OK, but at 67mm a short '75' on digi).

This is why it isn't (and cannot be) seamless: I'd need 4 cameras (2x MP, 2x M8) and four basic lenses (24-35-50-75) to get even close to 'seamless' working.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[aniMal]

So I take it you do not have an M8? If that is the case, you are keeping a very balanced view of it I must say. There are so many who have a lot to say without even having used one! I was a bit negative myself before getting it, but what made me buy was realizing that the people actually USING one were mostly on the positive side!

 

[HankBar]

Would an Epson R-D1 fit in? I like it as a back up. Problem is a different crop factor and smaller range of lenses.
But anyway, much cheaper.

 

[Roger Hicks]

So I take it you do not have an M8? If that is the case, you are keeping a very balanced view of it I must say. There are so many who have a lot to say without even having used one! I was a bit negative myself before getting it, but what made me buy was realizing that the people actually USING one were mostly on the positive side!

Not sure if this is addressed to me or not. If it is, yes, I have an M8: review at http://www.rogerandfrances.com/photoschool/m8.html

It's great, but I can't afford two of them. Actually, even if I could, I'd still want 'real' Leicas. Maybe that's the answer: 2x M8 for me, MP + M4-P for my wife, and I borrow her cameras...

So yes, as a user, I'm very much on the positive side. As you say, most people who use them, love them. They do not love them blindly. They accept that they have faults, but live with those faults because they are far outweighed by the advantages. Those who do not use them, are perhaps blinded by the faults (or the price).

Cheers,

R.

 

[aniMal]

Ooops - must have mixed up who said what...

I have tried RD-1, but gave it up almost instantly due to vignetting with wide angles. It is true that the M8 has room for improvement, but all problems can be overcome. But with the RD-1 I was just not able to get anything decent out of it with anything wider than a 28... Also it is discontinued - hard to replace fast if necessary...

 

[tomasis]

animal, when i know more about your equipment, I feel that M8 backup is not important now because you use Nikon digital already. You can choose another way: sell all nikon digital and buy M8 as backup so you dont have worry about no having a backup if one m8 is failing. WATE would be cool for wide angle works 😀 or why not Zeiss 15mm hehe

Roger, better buy 2x MP instead so you can share your 3x MP with your wife for a while 🙂 I think Im gonna sell my M4 and buy M3 as backup so I have 2x M3 and I need one black painted. I think it is good to have 2x cameras so you can use one for iso 400 and another for iso1600. Also for diferent FL as you pointed out. I dont really like the idea of carying one body with two lenses.