another story about public photography being 'suspicious'

[wdenies]

Sorry for my remark.
Let's talk about photography.
Who pays me a visit to NY?

 

[RML]

Oh boy, here we go again!

 

[srosenbach]

People are understandably jumpy nowadays, especially after some big terrorist event. As a former Manhattanite, I can attest that as a general rule, the NYC cops are among the best anywhere. Sorry this happened to Sharma, but things like this will occur from time to time, even for perfectly legal and legitimate circumstances like Sharma's, until the threat of mass murder by terrorism diminishes.

Something like this happened to me, although without the physical part - see http://therosenblog.blogspot.com/2004/09/trouble-over-bridges.html

 

[RML]

..., but things like this will occur from time to time, even for perfectly legal and legitimate circumstances like Sharma's, until the threat of mass murder by terrorism diminishes.

Until the perceived thread dimishes, if you ask me. No doubt there are people who can't live and let live, and no doubt they are planning one thing or another. I'm just wondering how real the thread is and how much of our freedoms we care to give up. It's no good to make people scared, especially of things they can't see or hold. Fear is a mighty and powerful beast that'll devour you head and tail if you let it into your mind and house. Governments (in the US, in Europe and everywhere else) need to make people aware, give them information and lots of it, help them in their search for safety and give them handles on how to deal with such possible threads. These are actions contrary to making people scared and taking away their freedoms, and the only way to defeat the terrorists and their supporters, and the only to make their goals fade into thin air. But that's just my opinion, of course.

 

[ch1]

Hey🙂

George, your outpourings above do not seem to have any relevance to my original post. I merely stated that someone with an Asian sounding name from India is unlikely to be white. Nowhere did I say anything about the skin colour etc of the police officer in question. Nor did I give the impression that I thought that the population of NYC is predominantly white/North European in descent. Still, somehow you managed to read in all this to my short statement.

ManGo

ManGo,

I guess I was picking up on the Belgian query which used this thread to enquire as to the current state of American freedom followed by the Canadian one which suggested this was an exercise in racism.

What more probably happened is that a very nervous cop, patrolling near Grand Central Station during a high alert following the Madrid train station bombings, overreacted and stopped some tourist who was innocently taking picture in the area.

Being an attorney in a city filled with attorneys, what I found interesting was how quickly one of my esteemed colleagues was able to ferret out the poor chap and get the case. He's is suing the City, which is so popular that the City maintains and large Legal Department just to fight lawsuits.

[As an aside, there is a lawyer's association here that "documents" street potholes and sidewalk cracks. They then "notify" the City of their existence. They do not do this out of civic duty. Rather, once the City is "on notice" if someone is injured or incurs property damage as the result of an accident on one of these hazards - the City is legally liable under the theory that having been told it is broken they are obligated to fix it!]

So to the Belgian query about the current state of American freedom, in NYC at least, sir, it is so robust that an aggreived tourist can bring suit against the City. He's likely to "win" his case and cost the taxpayers (e.g. me) money.

I wonder what my rights would be in Belgium in such a circumstance?

Sorry for the digress.

And I would love for you to come visit here. We could shoot some RF's together. In fact, tourists love to shoot pictures of the classic information booth in Grand Central Station - espescially J.D. Salinger (i.e. A Catcher in the Rye ) fans. 🙂

 

[Andy K]

So to the Belgian query about the current state of American freedom, in NYC at least, sir, it is so robust that an aggreived tourist can bring suit against the City.

You have no problem with the Government authorising phone and email taps on you without first gaining the ok from a Judge?
New york Times. "WASHINGTON, Dec. 17 - President Bush acknowledged on Saturday that he had ordered the National Security Agency to conduct an electronic eavesdropping program in the United States without first obtaining warrants, and said he would continue the highly classified program because it was "a vital tool in our war against the terrorists."

Many freedoms have been eroded in the name of 'security'. Not just in the US I hasten to add. In times like these we all have to be vigilant, not just against any terror threats but also against our own Governments who would use 'the threat of terror' to take away many of our freedoms.

 

[ch1]

You have no problem with the Government authorising phone and email taps on you without first gaining the ok from a Judge?
New york Times. "WASHINGTON, Dec. 17 - President Bush acknowledged on Saturday that he had ordered the National Security Agency to conduct an electronic eavesdropping program in the United States without first obtaining warrants, and said he would continue the highly classified program because it was "a vital tool in our war against the terrorists."

Many freedoms have been eroded in the name of 'security'. Not just in the US I hasten to add. In times like these we all have to be vigilant, not just against any terror threats but also against our own Governments who would use 'the threat of terror' to take away many of our freedoms.

Say, what?

The irrelevancy of your query aside, I have a hell of a lot of problem with the NSA's domestic wiretapping - as do many other Americans of all political persuasions - including the NY Times which "broke" the story. You know, under one of those freedoms known as freedom of press.

If you feel that the British government has a better record on this stuff - shall we start dicussing some of Mr. Blair's proposals that were made after the London Underground and bus bombings?

Enough of this - I'd rather "talk" RF

 

[Mike Kovacs]

copake_ham: I am not a racist and take great offense to being called one.

PM sent to moderators. If something is not done, I am through with RFF.

 

[Andy K]

Say, what?

The irrelevancy of your query aside, I have a hell of a lot of problem with the NSA's domestic wiretapping - as do many other Americans of all political persuasions - including the NY Times which "broke" the story. You know, under one of those freedoms known as freedom of press.

If you feel that the British government has a better record on this stuff - shall we start dicussing some of Mr. Blair's proposals that were made after the London Underground and bus bombings?

Enough of this - I'd rather "talk" RF

Read my post again. I said 'not just in the US'. I am also well aware of Mr Blair's proposals. I also quoted the new York Times. For an 'attorney' you don't pay attention to detail too well.
I was pointing out that while you may feel freedom is alive and kicking in NY, it is being eroded in the name of 'security'. Just as the guy in the original post had his freedoms eroded in the name of 'security'.

Ps. If you want to score points, we in Britain are not yet fingerprinting all visitors to our country.

 

[dreilly]

Er, I'll try to ignore the nasty turn this relevant thread has taken and address an earlier comment that this case is an exception and not the rule here in the US.

That's true, but the case--and others like it--have a spill-over effect.

I for one feel very uncomfortable photographing in public in the US. When I visited Slovakia this Christmas, all that eroded and I felt free to photograph again. I'm not arguing Slovakia is more free (so don't ask me to move there, my wife does all the time), but I am saying that the climate is different.

These cases, I would say, have contributed to a climate in the US that a) makes some (many?) photographers feel self-coscious and guilty for doing something that is not illegal and b) makes other people-and other cops (being a subset of people) suspicious of photographers.

But I would go on to argue a general climate of fear (of many boogeymen) in the US.

 

[ch1]

copake_ham: I am not a racist and take great offense to being called one.

PM sent to moderators. If something is not done, I am through with RFF.

Show me where I said you were a racist and I will gladly apologize.

Perhaps you might like to re-read my prior post more closely?

It was you, sir, who accused the police officer of acting in a racist manner.

 

[ch1]

Read my post again. I said 'not just in the US'. I am also well aware of Mr Blair's proposals. I also quoted the new York Times. For an 'attorney' you don't pay attention to detail too well.
I was pointing out that while you may feel freedom is alive and kicking in NY, it is being eroded in the name of 'security'. Just as the guy in the original post had his freedoms eroded in the name of 'security'.

Ps. If you want to score points, we in Britain are not yet fingerprinting all visitors to our country.

Andy,

I have zero desire to be pushed into a position of defending the present US admnistration. I didn't vote for them and actively worked for the other side.

However, I am really uncomfortable when non-Americans, with their own ideological biases and political agendas, "hijack" threads like this to engage in America-bashing. Particularly by taking an anecdotal incident of the isolated actions of an overeager police officer and turning into a diatribe against the U.S. generally.

I am hardly young or naive enough to think that everything is a-ok in the US - but I would be hard-pressed to find that to be the case in Europe or Canada or elsewhere in the so-called "free world".

Obviously, because of the general unpopularity of the current US government in many of the democracies - there is a tendency to go "over the top" and to enflame rather than enlighten. But the simple example of the recent riots in France demonstrates that no society is without domestic tensions.

There is one last thing I will point out. There are presently over 40 million legal immigrants living in the U.S. In addition, there are estimates of up to 11 million "illegal" immigrants.

Clearly, the U.S. is a popular place for people to come to. Besides Canada and Australia, can you tell me what other countries are so welcoming to newcomers?

After all, it is people from everywhere else that are coming here - not the other way around!

Oh, and to the fellow who feels threatened when taking photos in the Finger Lakes. Is it the grapes in the vineyards that you think are after you?

Now enough of this thread.

Regards,
George

 

[Andy K]

However, I am really uncomfortable when non-Americans, with their own ideological biases and political agendas, "hijack" threads like this to engage in America-bashing. Particularly by taking an anecdotal incident of the isolated actions of an overeager police officer and turning into a diatribe against the U.S. generally.

I am NOT 'US bashing'. I can't help it if you feel so insecure about your country that you perceive someone pointing out that your freedom is not as secure as you think, as 'US bashing'.

There is one last thing I will point out. There are presently over 40 million legal immigrants living in the U.S. In addition, there are estimates of up to 11 million "illegal" immigrants.

Clearly, the U.S. is a popular place for people to come to. Besides Canada and Australia, can you tell me what other countries are so welcoming to newcomers?

Yes, Britain. We welcome hundreds of thousands of migrants from all over the world, including people migrating here from the US, every year.

 

[dreilly]

>Oh, and to the fellow who feels threatened when taking photos in the Finger Lakes. Is it the grapes in the vineyards that you think are after you?

Wow, that's not inflammatory at all.

Moderator PM-ed.

 

[nrb]

In the summer of 2004 I was detained by the special plain clothes police for taking photographs in an underground station with a Fed3 camera and a pre-war Summar lens. I was detained while driving away from the crime scene 3 hours after the act, which means that the gunmen followed me for that time while I traveled by tube, had lunch in a tapas bar, bought some gifts at a jewller's store and traveled by tube back to my car. I was driven at gun point to an unmarked building, where I was debriefed by a chief inspector and sent back home with formal excuses.
Only last month a regular police officer forbade my taking any images on the street near the Mint Office...
All this happened not in the US where no one ever told me not to take any images, but in ultra-liberal EU.

 

[ch1]

Yes, Britain. We welcome hundreds of thousands of migrants from all over the world, including people migrating here from the US, every year.

Britain! 😕

Neither Britain, nor any other European country would ever tolerate the levels of immigration that has historically been experienced by the US, Canada and Australia. The US, Canada and Australia are, by definition, immigrant countries! Except for so-called "native peoples"* we ALL come from somewhere else! 😀

You are comparing apples to oranges when you compare migration levels between the US and the UK!

*And even they migrated in much earlier times from elsewhere!

 

[Andy K]

Britain! 😕

Neither Britain, nor any other European country would ever tolerate the levels of immigration that has historically been experienced by the US, Canada and Australia. The US, Canada and Australia are, by definition, immigrant countries! Except for so-called "native peoples"* we ALL come from somewhere else! 😀

You are comparing apples to oranges when you compare migration levels between the US and the UK!

*And even they migrated in much earlier times from elsewhere!

We are a smaller country, therefore the numbers are smaller. Compare the percentages.
Let's see now, first there were the ancient Britons, the Celts, the Picts, the Romans, then the Angles, Saxons and Jutes, the Vikings, the Normans... in more recent years there are West Indians, Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans, Ugandan Indians, Nigerians, Ghanians, Chinese, Italians...

Here are the figures.

I think Britain's record on receiving migrants is pretty good.

 

[marknyc]

Here we go again. A query from Eurpose - say, BTW, what's the state of affairs in the Paris suburbs these days anyway? Have they lifted the curfews and lockdowns?

Actually, I have been hassled by the police merely for taking photos once and it was in Paris back in about 1982. I was shooting at Les Puces (the famous flea market) and took a couple of shots when some nearby police came over and gave me the third degree. After a bit of confusion I figured out they thought I was shooting them (they'd been questioning someone). They took my camera to examine (a low end Nikon SLR) and started asking if I was a journalist and demanding my film. After a while it became clear to them I was just this spotty faced English tourist kid and they let me go (without taking the camera or film). Pretty scary though and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

-- Mark

 

[peterc]

[RANT]
I'm not sure why this thread became so needlessly nasty but I think we can agree this abuse of power as it relates to photographers happens just about everywhere. It is something we, and all citizens of "free" countries, have to watch. If it is allowed to pass without comment there is a chance it will become accepted and become the norm.
This sort of thing makes life easier for police ... they don't have to actually determine whether you're a threat before going the bully route. If we don't play the squeaky wheel now, we will have handed our freedom over to authority simply so they don't have to do their job.
[/RANT]

Peter

 

[back alley]

I AM BEGINNING TO HATE THESE KINDS OF THREADS!!!

while they start off in the vincinity of photography they quickly veer off into ethnic/police/america/canada/europe etc bashing!

i don't understand why you guys think there is something to probe here.
i don't understand what the need to pile on and continue a useless argument is.

time, gentlemen, please.