Another "which one..." question

[jamais]

The local dealer offers two Leicas at the moment which is a very scarce occurence - Should I buy one of them as a birthday present for myself? What do you think about the asked price?
(link removed)
1st offer: Leica II black with Elmar 3.5/5cm - EUR 290
2nd offer: Leica III chrome with Elmar 3.5/5cm - EUR 290

 

[colyn]

I'd go with the Leica III chrome since the II was raped by a hack with the flash sync addition..

 

[rfaspen]

So that's 290 Euro? For my area, that's a touch steep unless they've been serviced.

I second the III if I had to choose between these two.

 

[Luddite Frank]

The II, with s/n 14xxx looks like it is either an extremely early II, or a I or A that was upgraded to a II.

The III looks like a 1934-35 model.

I find it interesting that both examples have the shutter-release collar intact... these are frequently missing with these 1930's models...

The II "should" have an 11 o'clock Inf. lock nickel Elmar, but that is splitting hairs... while the flash sync might be regrettable, it's not so bad as the surface-mount variety where the 3mm co-axial stud protrudes from the face of the body.... slip a period Eveready case on it, and you'll never see that flash sync.

I don't know the exchange rate is currently in regards to Euro >< USD, but if the glass is decent in either lens, that might not be too out of line....

I believe the going rate from KEH for a chrome III body is around $160-$240 USD, and a black II, $150-$300USD, a clean Elmar, with no cleaning-marks, probably $200-$400 ?

Ask what kind of deal he can swing for both ... 😀

 

[Dralowid]

The black lens hood on the II is worth good money. The sync can always be removed and the hole patched.

 

[Jerevan]

The II has the black hood, but on the other hand it has the ORAKO (?) filter on, which may suggest that the rf patch may be weak in contrast.

Check them out, and buy the one that is in the best mechanical condition if you are going to use it. You are lucky enough to be able to actually do that, many of us have to buy "bilnd" over the internet.

Bring a small flashlight and a loupe, if you want to do it seriously. 🙂 I think the price is pretty good, considering they both are complete packages. I am partial to the II, but mechanical and optical condition means more than anything.

 

[Sumolux]

The local dealer offers two Leicas at the moment which is a very scarce occurence - Should I buy one of them as a birthday present for myself? What do you think about the asked price?
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/usersummary.php?uid=29546
photoid=209586[/IMG]

The Model IID inthe picture was originally a I and dates from 1929.
It was redone into a Model II obviously?
The Orako filter does not mean there are problems per se; many people used them to help focusing. They work quite well actually, i use one all the time. The Orako filters sometimes goe on eBay for Euro 60-80, so if you buy the camera don't lose it ! However, the camera looks like it needs real work and is no bargain as such I think. If the Elmar dates from the conversion (sometime after 1932) then it would be a 7 o'clock version not 11 unless I am mistaken.

The III looks better, but they are really more common and there is a large choice out there of good ones in the same price range.

But I am prejudiced; the Model IID is my all time favourite, and I do not miss the slow speeds with it. If need be, I go to the IIIf instead.

If I were you I would wait and look a bit longer....
Anyway, just my 2 cents.
Sumolux

 

[HuubL]

What Michael (Dralowid) said!!

 

[johannielscom]

Early conversion Leica Ia to II. With an OKARO filter, an original black paint hood and the 3.5/50mm Elmar that's on it: that body would almost be a gift, the rest of the kit is worth close to the price alone!

And an early conversion body! You lucky dawg! 😛

 

[jamais]

Thank you all, I appreciate your comments and hints! Is the lens in the Ia to II conversion interchangeable and how can I find it out? The staff in this shop is friendly but on such old cameras I do not expect them to be able to answer my questions.

 

[HuubL]

Yes, the lens should work on any LTM (and M camera with a converter). I don't think it's the Elmar that came with the I originally, as at that time these lenses were so-called 11 o'clock versions. This is a 7 o'clock. It is nickel plated though, so I guess 1934/1935 or thereabouts (with a 5 cm instead of 50 mm indication). I can't tell from the photos if it's numbered. The whole set is definitely worth more than the III. I don't say better or worse, but worth more as for collector's value.

 

[xayraa33]

I am a big fan of the Leica III but that Leica II looks cool even with that crude looking flash sync outlet disfigurement in front.

If I owned that particular Leica II, I would leave it the way it is as part of its journey through time.

 

[jamais]

Ok, so I took a closer look at the II (the III has obviously a misaligned rangefinder patch)...
- The shutter times may be fine or not, I do not know.
- The shutter curtains have collected some dust
- The Rangefinder patch seems well aligned, the contrast is good
- The viewfinder is clean
- Some particles of the paint of the body (or was it the vulcanite?) sticked on my fingers after playing with it for some minutes
- The screw on the hood is tight, it cannot be moved. Still the hood is usable as it is
- The lens is not completely clear, I cannot determine wether it is some dirt or a mechanical fault on one of the glass elements. Inside the lens is one bigger dust particle as well as one fungus spot. The fungus spot is near the center of one of the glass elements. All this should not or only slightly affect image quality
- Mechanically the lens is usable but honestly I would prefer it being cleaned and relubed. The aperture lever is a little on the stiff side.

What keeps me away from buying: I put the Elmar on my M4-P and could't focus down to infinity - with the II this is no problem. Any ideas why this could be? A completely different adjustment on both, the camera and the lens?

I fear that an overhaul is inevitable for smooth and reliable operation - something not very surprising for an item of this age. But currently I do not have the budget for this.

 

[Luddite Frank]

Thank you all, I appreciate your comments and hints! Is the lens in the Ia to II conversion interchangeable and how can I find it out? The staff in this shop is friendly but on such old cameras I do not expect them to be able to answer my questions.

If you unscrew the lens from the mount, on the mount-ring attached to the camera body, there may be a "0" stamped in the ring, at "12 o'clock" - this indicates that the body has been fitted with a "standardized" Leica thread-mount, and will accept any standardized LTM lens.

Some early conversions had the lens specially collimated to that particular body, there will be no "0" on the body flange, and the lens will not properly focus on other cameras. I believe these lenses were stamped / engraved with the body serial number somewhere... ?

Since you mentioned that the Elmar would not focus to Infinity on your M-8, I wonder if it is a non-standardised lens ? Perhaps try the lens from the other camera on your M-8, and see how that one Focuses ?

 

[Sumolux]

Ok,
What keeps me away from buying: I put the Elmar on my M4-P and could't focus down to infinity - with the II this is no problem. Any ideas why this could be? A completely different adjustment on both, the camera and the lens?

I fear that an overhaul is inevitable for smooth and reliable operation - something not very surprising for an item of this age. But currently I do not have the budget for this.

Hi jamais,
Sorry, I don't understand: you put the screw Elmar on the M4-P? So you are using a screw/m-mount adapter. That might be causing the problem?

Coming back to the IID: I am always looking at these cameras, I love them, and like I said, if you take a little more time and check out ebay and elsewhere there are some great deals to be had, with better condition than this camera. I recently bought a IID in great condition for about $250. and it needed no work.

Unless you 'need' it now, there is no reason I think to take these cameras when you have such doubts. There are plenty around!

Good luck whatever you end up doing!

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

When worrying about the budget, you might like to research the price of the ORAKO and think about selling it to raise cash... I shall get into a lot of people's bad books for this but it's a possibility to consider. The hood, otoh, is essential.

Regards, David

 

[Penny Lane]

Mind that, if the RF patch is clear and of decent contrast, that III may very well still be a viable option. It's normally not a lot of work to re-align the rangefinder on a Leica II/III and you'll want to know how to do it anyway.

Edit to add: also, if there's no contrast to the patch at all, replacing the beam splitter is not very difficult nor do parts need to be expensive. It might be a point worth haggling about though 🙂

Derk

 

[jamais]

...you put the screw Elmar on the M4-P? So you are using a screw/m-mount adapter...

Yes

That might be causing the problem?

I do not think so. The adapter works fine with other lenses.

...Unless you 'need' it now, there is no reason I think to take these cameras when you have such doubts. There are plenty around!
Good luck whatever you end up doing!

Thanks again to everybody. One of my initial questions was Should I buy one of them as a birthday present for myself? - I split that question into two parts and answer the fist part Should I buy one with YES 🙂 and the second part as a birthday present with NO. I definately fell in love with these old jewels and would like to have one some day. But as Sumolux put it, I do not 'need' it now and don't want to take the risk of an expensive repair right now...

 

[Steve Bellayr]

Make a good deal for yourself. Have the dealer switch the hood to the lens that you want. It is valued at $100 USD approx. & the ORAKO finder is fantastic. Don't leave the store without him switching it to the camera that you want. It, too, is worth $100 USD appprox.