Any Mamiya Six Users Out There?

[dave61]

Just started using Mamiya Six folder, Model IV c.1947. I like. Shot 1st roll of Tri-X. First Impressions-
Upside: Focusing=accurate and easy, great RF/VF. Film flatness=excellent. Lens=very contrasty. Handling & ergonomics=very comfotable. Sturdy design, sseems bulit to last (like my Mamiya C-33 and RB-67).
Downside: Lots of lens flare (shade hasn't arrived yet). Needs UV filter. Soft edges wide open (sharp by f/8). No strap lugs=have to use bottom 1/2 of case.
I'd like to know other photographers' impressions of their Mamiya Six folding camera.

Here's a couple of shots from roll #1... and this is the beast...

 

[Krosya]

I used to have one of these - a slightly different version. It was in great condition, but I never got used to ergonomics of it, - I dont like folders that have lens door hinged at the bottom - prefer ones with the side hinges; plus I didnt think it's lens was all that great - fairly sharp, but didnt give me the look I like. Dont know - maybe I had a lemon, yet all mechanics worked fine. Sold it and went back to my old Welta Weltur - I just love those.

 

[P C Headland]

I've got an early one from around 1942. It's got the waist level finder as well as the conventional finder.

I quite like using it, and have had quite good results from it. I wouldn't mind trying a later model some day to see how it compares to my more recent '50s folders.

 

[dave61]

It's a Mamiya Six Thang

It's a Mamiya Six Thang

chippy: "Dave, on occasion i use the Mamiya-6 Automatic Model 2, same as yours but the model a few years later, has the self cocking shutter which is a nice feature, coated Sekor lens etc. ...
i guess having to use the bottom half of the case can be seen as downside... sometimes i consider installing strap lugs on a camera, which wouldnt be too difficult, I cant be bothered i guess and just use them the way they are".

--Chippy-Can't bring myself to drill into the body of a classic camera. I have 2 Bessamatics and they don't have lugs either. I just use the bottom1/2 of case. Hard to get used to when I'm accustomed to using a Leica M-3 and Nikon F without the case. Case slows down film changing.
______________________________________________________________

Krosya: "I used to have one of these - a slightly different version. It was in great condition, but I never got used to ergonomics of it, - I dont like folders that have lens door hinged at the bottom - prefer ones with the side hinges; plus I didnt think it's lens was all that great - fairly sharp, but didnt give me the look I like..."

--Krosya--Interesting...never thought about how camera opens. Guess I'm so used to Speed Graphics opening downward, I never noticed.
The lens isn't as sharp as I'd hoped, but it's high contrast. It's an aquired taste.
I use all kinds of lenses on Speed Graphics and Graflex SLR's: Pre-war Tessars; Ernemann; Ross; Cooke; Kodak Anastigmats; Bausch & Lomb; Post-war Optars; Ektars; Raptars and Jena Tessars.
Schnieder and Voightlander lense on Bessamatics. I have C.Zeiss Jena lenses on the Exaktas.
Leica has its own brand of optical excellence; Nikon lenses are superb. RB-67 lenses are startlingly crisp and contrasty.
German lenses of any era seem rounder, less contrasty, render softer colors and have creamier bokeh...
I like different lenses for different shoots, but with a folder, I don't have that option. OTOH, I didn't get a folder for serious photography. I got it as a carry-around for days when I'm not planning any special shooting.
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P C Headland: "...I quite like using it, and have had quite good results from it. I wouldn't mind trying a later model some day to see how it compares to my more recent '50s folders."

--P C--What did you like about it, and under what shooting conditions did it give you the best results? What other folders have you used? How does the Mamiya compare in terms of mechanical quality/sturdiness/bellows longevity, etc. Any weaknesses I should watch out for?
______________________________________________________________
Thanks all for your responses!--Dave.

 

[kuzano]

--P C--What did you like about it, and under what shooting conditions did it give you the best results? What other folders have you used? How does the Mamiya compare in terms of mechanical quality/sturdiness/bellows longevity, etc. Any weaknesses I should watch out for?
______________________________________________________________
Thanks all for your responses!--Dave.

Not to answer for another, but I will say that having had about 6 of the variants of the Mamiya 6 folders (my favorite, the Autosix from 1955) They are tanks. The front standard is the most rigid I have seen in any folder. That is largely due to the rangefinder being coupled to the film plane for focus and film flatness is superb as well.

I doubt you will find many folders with a moving front lens standard, or front cell focus that will come close to the Mamiya 6 for rigid film to film plane geometry...Strongest positive I can give any folding camera. But, the camera is heavy as a result.

 

[dave61]

Japanese Tank

Japanese Tank

kuzano:
"... having had about 6 of the variants of the Mamiya 6 folders (my favorite, the Autosix from 1955)"----Do you still use one? How does the Six-IV stack up to the later models? And where do I get a flash synch cable? How does the flash synch work with that single prong on the backside of the lens standard?
"...They are tanks. The front standard is the most rigid I have seen in any folder. That is largely due to the rangefinder being coupled to the film plane for focus and film flatness is superb as well."-----That's why I took the time to find one. It seemed like a solid design.
"...Strongest positive I can give any folding camera. But, the camera is heavy as a result."----Yeah, but it's lighter than my Speed Graphics, Nikon F, or Leica M-3. And it folds up and it's fun to use.

 

[Gordon Coale]

I've only had my 1953 dual format Mamiya-6 a few weeks but it has become my carry everywhere camera. I love the thumb wheel focusing. Here is a Flickr set with some pictures. I have a bunch more to scan.

 

[P C Headland]

______________________________________________________________

P C Headland: "...I quite like using it, and have had quite good results from it. I wouldn't mind trying a later model some day to see how it compares to my more recent '50s folders."

--P C--What did you like about it, and under what shooting conditions did it give you the best results? What other folders have you used? How does the Mamiya compare in terms of mechanical quality/sturdiness/bellows longevity, etc. Any weaknesses I should watch out for?
______________________________________________________________
Thanks all for your responses!--Dave.

Usage: Mainly handheld scenics, bouth country side and city side, with the ocassional shot of our young child.

What did I like? The thumbwheel focusing, the viewfinder is pretty good for a camera this age, & I like the double-exposure "prevention" flag that drops down in the viewfinder. It feels well enough put together, but doesn't have the solidity that you feel with the Super Ikonta 532/16 or Certo Six. It feels more like the Super Ikonta III.

Bits I don't care for? The film loading takes longer than my other folders, and the lens seems a little lower in contrast than the uncoated Tessar on the 532/16, but is otherwise sharp enough. I'm not a great fan of its never-ready case design, but that's hardly a camera fault!

Other similar cameras I have? In order of preference - Iskra I and II, Certo Six, Super Fujica Six, then the following which all score about the same, albeit for differing reasons - (Mamiya Six), Super Ikonta III, Super Ikonta 532/16, Agilux Agifold. The best made is the Certo Six, and it has the best lens (just), but I still prefer the Iskra.

 

[dave61]

Mamiya and Iskra

Mamiya and Iskra

Thanks for the feedback, one and all...
Gordon-I too am a L.F. Graflex SLR user. I've shot my best work with my 3x4 RB Series D. THAT'S a camera. The antithesis of a 120 folder...
PC-You've tried many folders. Sounds like the Certo 6 is the best in your opinion. Tell you what, I'm not happy with the lens on my Mamiya. Too soft, too much flare. I read about the Iskra. Its lens is fabled to be awesome.
So... I went and bought an Iskra, supposedly/hopefully in great working order (from an American photographer who's gone digital). What, me impulsive? Nah.
How's your Iskra, mechanically speaking? From what I've read, it's a solid, relatively modern design. Many photogs praise the Iskra, though I've read the film advance can be troublesome (auto advance on many 120 cameras is prone to malfunction, even on my Rollei...).

Oh LOOK!! A squirrel...

 

[pagpow]

Thanks for the feedback, one and all...
Gordon-I too am a L.F. Graflex SLR user. I've shot my best work with my 3x4 RB Series D. THAT'S a camera. The antithesis of a 120 folder...
PC-You've tried many folders. Sounds like the Certo 6 is the best in your opinion. Tell you what, I'm not happy with the lens on my Mamiya. Too soft, too much flare. ]

I thought the Mamiya 6 came with several lenses -- of different qualities. True? Which one do you have?

 

[dave61]

mamiya vs iskra vs zeiss vs agfa vs...

mamiya vs iskra vs zeiss vs agfa vs...

PC- You say the Iskra is your favorite, but the Certo is a better camera. Out of curiosity (since I'm getting an Iskra), what is it about the Iskra?
Chippy- FWIW, engineering-wise, the Mamiya-Six was ahead of its time when it came out in 1940. My 1947 Six-IV looks like a Super Ikonta III, which, if my info is correct, came out in 1956. IMO, the Germans learned from the Japanese
pagpow- The Mamiya-Six used different lenses, not all of them fully multi-coated Zuikos. My early (1947) Six-IV has an Olympus Zuilko F.C. I've read coments from other Mamiya-Six users that earlier lenses weren't that sharp. I've also read that the later (recomputeed?) Zuikos of the 1950's were very sharp.
The 75 mm Zuiko on my Mamiya is about as sharp and prone to flare as the brass barrel mounted c.1912 Tessar on one of my old Graflexes..
Overall, I think this camera was well-engineered and well produced. Mine, at least, operates very smoothly, has no sharp edges, and is mechanically comparable to European folders. It's quite rugged, the film-advance mechanism is strong (it survived a pretty bad film jam 2 days ago).My only complaints are the lens, and lack of a pc flash socket. I'm thinking about putting another lens/shutter combo on it.

 

[P C Headland]

"You say the Iskra is your favorite, but the Certo is a better camera. Out of curiosity (since I'm getting an Iskra), what is it about the Iskra?"

There's not much in it to be honest, and part of it may be down to me having a soft spot for it since it was the very first folder I bought, and my first ebay purchase.

But, the Iskra has a bigger & better viewfinder, a more modern film wind (yes, both mine work) and it is easier to use on a tripod. Oh, and I prefer the "sssnick" sound of the shutter

I'd be happy with either though.

Apart from the links in my sig, I've also got a bunch of folder pictures over on flickr

 

[sebastian toombs]

its a sweet camera! i have one from the early 1950s i think-- it doesnt have that silver box thing above the lens, but isnt 'new' enough to have both 'windows' square.
obviously, loading film can be a pain. i cant count the number of times i have closed the back and advanced the film before realizing the insert is sitting on my knee. finding a hood is difficult if you dont have access to a good camera shop with an old rummage bin. once i got close enough, i used some gaffer's tape inside the hood to make it stick. (any tips appreciated on the topic of filters and hoods). i found an old binocular case that it fits in perfectly, but agree straps would be helpful.
the images are really nice, sharp and contrasty. focusing is a snap compared to a front cell camera. the red warning window thing is handy too.

ive just brought mine out and its sitting on my desk, waiting to shoot a roll tomorrow!

 

[dave61]

New camera designs always build on earlier designs. The best new cameras create solutions to the flaws of earlier designs.
It's not unusual to think Japanese cameras were derivative, but it's a disservice to believe this. Japanese camera design was (and is) innovative.
My Mamiya Six-IV appears to have an uncoated lens. I'd hoped for a crisper optic. Mainly it's the flare. Don't know if it's the lens or my expectations.
It uses 36mm slip-on filters, same as screw-mount Leica ("A36"filters). I went to auction site, entered "36mm filter" in search category and had no trouble finding filters or shade.
Purchased UV and X1 (Green 1) filters, and lens shade. These have helped considerably with flare and lack of contrast.
I'm used to photos I get from a Ross 12 Inch/f-5.5 Tele & 165mm/f-3.5 Ermanon that I use on my Speed Graphic and Graflex SLR. Don't know why, but these 2 pre-war lenses are tack sharp and contrasty.
I also used Leica M-3 and Nikon F for 30-odd years, which really prejudices my expectation of lens sharpness and contrast.

 

[chippy]

Mamiya Six focusing mechanism was unique and its bright, combined RF/VF was years ahead of the competition. It's not unusual to think Japanese cameras were derivative, but it's a disservice to believe this. Japanese camera design was (and is) innovative. New camera designs always build on earlier designs.

Dave, i dont dislike the vintage Japanese cameras, they work fine, take reasonable to v/good pictures (many of the early ones used German lenses and shutters anyway, before they started making their own to be used across the board, and then as time went on perfected them. I dont mind giving them credit for tweaking upgrades or improvements in some of those camera-however as i said thats is easy to do when someone else has spent the (extensive) time and money developing the intial camera

again you mention and give credit to the wrong people, the combined RF/VF was first placed on a production 120 Welta (German) folding camera in the guise of the Clarovid II sold by Rodenstock in 1934, later that same year Welta released a new design combined RF/VF for the first Welta Weltur camera, that is still amongst the best combined VF/RF found on a classic/vintage folding camera, i dont mind saying the VF on the last Mamiya-6 is bigger and brighter but the truth is there is little between them, particularly considering one was invented and produced 20 years earlier than the best and last Mamiya-6

of course Japanese camera design 'is' innovative nowadays and has been for some time, I'm all for it (great!), but credit must be given to where the credit is duly deserved for the beginnings, production and creative designs of these vintage camera.

Dictionary definition for "derivative"; noun, something that is based on another source. Thats exactly what these vintage/classic Japanese cameras are, derivatives.

Russian camera aficionado's, whilst they like their cameras for all sorts of reasons dont deny and seem to appreciate the fact they are copies of the German cameras. Why is it that its always the spokespeople for Japanese vintage cameras like to claim theirs were original, and thereby innovative creators of these cameras.

for the sake of the discussion, to answer my own question i think it stems from the early years, of the self promotion and associated literature within Japan claiming all these false assertions as being the designers. then as time goes on people write books or information on the web based on these advertising leaflets or articles from publications where the Japanese gave awards to these camera makers. For example; Kuribayashi won awards for being the best camera manufacturer in Japan at one point and producing some of the best innovative cameras, one of them as it happens was a copy of the Weltur and some others won awards too.

Its written in books even now and many people still believe they made these cameras, that were copies (not that they mention they are copies, they say they are Kuribayashi models). However, not only did they not design them, they didnt even manufacture them! the cameras were imported in from germany Welta, Balda, Zeiss and engraved with their own markings, sometimes imported as a whole camera, others were just bodies or parts and assembled, quite a few models are the basic german camera but they, substituted different lens and/or shutter, often added a different top or viewfinder that was better than the original had (easy to do when you havnt already poured all your development money into design and production of the original camera). as time went on they did produce their own cameras but not for most of these early cameras. Other Japanese companies copied the German models as well (i.e Minolta), often down to the exact same specs on every little part, no doubt it saved them from too much thinking, i have a few. pre-war these cameras were only sold in Japan, no doubt copyright stopped them from selling elsewhere, post war is another story of course.

there no doubt these Japanese folding cameras are derivatives, copies, rip offs, clones or whatever you want to call them...are they fun to use, sure i take one for a spin every now and again, but i know where they came from

 

[dave61]

Pagpow -I'm talking about the Mamiya Six folding camera, not the later Mamiya 6 interchangeable-lens RF camera.

Sebastian -The colors in your shots are really vibrant. Filters and lens hoods: My early Zuiko lens has no threads for filters, takes A36 (early Leica style) slip-on filter. Search ebay for "36mm filter". Also- ever-ready case for camera; I use the bottom half, it has strap lugs. Search ebay under "mamiya six folding". The stuff is out there in cyber-space, waiting.

Chippy -I never said that Mamiya INVENTED the combined RF/VF. Only that the 1940 Super Ikonta 532/16 still had separate RF and VF windows. The 1940 Mamiya Six didn't. A 1940 Mamiya is styled like the 1956 Super Ikonta III. It doesn't look much like the pre-war Super Ikonta, with that flip-up semaphore for its front-element focusing lens.
Why would Mamiya have needed German lenses? There were dozens of optical houses in Japan. Japan's optical industry dates back to 19th century.

Japanese camera engineers integrated earlier designs from MANY sources into new cameras. They also improved on each design. To call them copycats and imitators seems to me like slagging off an entire peoples.

Is Barnack's 1914 Ur Leica anything more then a miniaturized 1-A Speed Kodak (1907)? The first miniature 120 roll-film SLR with focal plane shutter was the 1932 National Graflex, beating Exakta by 2 years. Did Exakta COPY Graflex? Was Leitz copying Zeiss Contax, when it introduced the M-3 in '54, with a long-base combined RF/VF and all shutter speeds on one dial?

I doubt that ultra-nationalistic pre-war Imperial Japan was importing (and re-badging?) German cameras, other then through franchised sales associates. It contradicts historical evidence. Prior to WW II, Japan was an isolationist country. Much of it's technology was home-grown. For example, pre-war Japanese aircraft design and naval architecture was unique, innovative, and unlike European or American designs.

Post-war, Japanese camera industry took off while Western camera industries withered. By 1970's it was over. Mired in tradition, Western camera manufacturing died due to failure to innovate, to develop new concepts and technologies quickly, to follow consumer demand. There's a reason why the new "Voigtlander" cameras are engineered and made in Japan...

I personally believe America made the best cameras of the vintage and classic era, but no one camera is a solution to all photographic situations. America didn't make a 120 RF folder as compact, reliable or useable as German, Japanese or Soviet examples. As much as I love my Graflex and Speed Graphic cameras, they can't do everything, and there's no popular demand for them today.

 

[chippy]

Chippy -I never said that Mamiya INVENTED the combined RF/VF. Only that the 1940 Super Ikonta 532/16 still had separate RF and VF windows. The 1940 Mamiya Six didn't. A 1940 Mamiya is styled like the 1956 Super Ikonta III. It doesn't look much like the pre-war Super Ikonta, with that flip-up semaphore for its front-element focusing lens.
Why would Mamiya have needed German lenses? There were dozens of optical houses in Japan. Japan's optical industry dates back to 19th century.

Dave, you did say however that their combined VF/RF window was years ahead of the competition, it clearly wasnt! i believe you are thinking of the 530/16 (1935-1937) with seperate rf/vf windows..the 1937 532/16 Super Ikonta has combined RF/VF window, in fact the front window of the pre-war Super Ikonta is interchangeable with the last model Mamiya-6 , 1958 (same size) thats how similar they are. If you actually hold these in your hand you can see how they are essentially the same camera, with the mamiya differing due to its different focusing method etc

Japanese camera engineers integrated earlier designs from MANY sources into new cameras. They also improved on each design. To call them copycats and imitators seems to me like slagging off an entire peoples.

firstly it is not slagging off at an entire peoples (i think its best if we try to keep this on track) we are discussing the cameras not slagging the people

however, yes, many of these integrations from many sources involved them taking tops from some other german makers and placing them on bodies from other German maker cameras, depending on the Japanese company it varied to whether they were copies of some other top or a newly designed top...i have many examples that can show this, if you look them up you can see it happened often...in the early days before the roll film camera gained popularlity it was common for the Japanese to either copy the german models or import them and sell them rebadged, or another common practise was to import the various pieces of hardware (struts etc) from different German suppliers and assemble them in Japan, where by the camera might have struts from one german maker and front standard from another etc etc...so in a way they made the first frankencameras, they can have credit for that

I doubt that ultra-nationalistic pre-war Imperial Japan was importing (and re-badging?) German cameras, other then through franchised sales associates. It contradicts historical evidence.

well they (Kuribayashi and some others) did rebadge (engrave their own name on the camera), its a fact, like it or not.

i'm not (and did not state) saying it was illegal, the German companies sold their cameras to them knowing. but in the case of Kuribayashi and some others, people often incorrectly believe (then and now) because of photo magazine articles that they actually designed and built them (and the Japanese companies let them believe it), when in fact they didnt, some of the other Japanese companies copied the German camera exactly (as mentioned before) and named them something else (e.g. the minolta Auto semi for example, the list is too long, 100's and 100's), post war the Japanese companies finally started producing each part of the camera themselves (though still based on the German models)

Post-war, Japanese camera industry took off while Western camera industries withered. By 1970's it was over. Mired in tradition, Western camera manufacturing died due to failure to innovate, to develop new concepts and technologies quickly, to follow consumer demand. There's a reason why the new "Voigtlander" cameras are engineered and made in Japan...

as i said before , i dont have anything against Japanese cameras, i use them myself, i love the 1970's OM series of cameras and have quite a few (they are among my favourite), as well as some others..they were innovative! (he got the inspiration apparently to place the shutter gears down below from the early Leica cameras to achieve the compact design). however i dont wax lyrical about the how innovative early Japanese cameras such as many of these folders because they dont deserve the credit. its not anything critical against the Japanese as a people, i am sorry you think it is. i am not emotional about it but if you are am sorry. I like, collect and use cameras from different periods. IMHO the English made the best cameras early on (and largely most people would agree), the Thornton Pickard Royal Ruby was and is still acclaimed as the King of cameras (i use the two i have and attest to the beauty, craftsmanship and usability), then as you say came the German period of innovative and quality cameras and then later the Japanese. Give credit where credit is due is all.

i dont have a problem with the American Graflex and Graphic cameras either, i never mentioned them or American cameras...this is just widening the discussion away from the early folders

anyway like i said i like the Japanese cameras but everyone has to start somewhere and a large component of their industry began by importing german cameras, assembling the german components and also copying them, from there they eventually progressed to do great things, while the German camera industry didnt keep up, as we all know

 

[Ernst Dinkla]

Dave, you did say however that their combined VF/RF window was years ahead of the competition, it clearly wasnt! i believe you are thinking of the 530/16 (1935-1937) with seperate rf/vf windows..the 1937 532/16 Super Ikonta has combined RF/VF window, in fact the front window of the pre-war Super Ikonta is interchangeable with the last model Mamiya-6 , 1958 (same size) thats how similar they are. If you actually hold these in your hand you can see how they are essentially the same camera, with the mamiya differing due to its different focusing method etc

(snip)

anyway like i said i like the Japanese cameras but everyone has to start somewhere and a large component of their industry began by importing german cameras, assembling the german components and also copying them, from there they eventually progressed to do great things, while the German camera industry didnt keep up, as we all know

The RF/VF of the Konica Pearl IV of 1958 and similar ones on the Konica's 35 mm fixed lens RF cameras mark Japanese progress beyond German range/viewfinder concepts. The Polaroid 110b and 900 Pathfinder cameras of the sixties the first to adopt that system outside Japan. After the Pearl IV the first folder cameras to have such fine finders. If I'm not mistaken both the Plaubel Makina 67 and the Bessa III are the only MF folder cameras that have similar finders. No wonder a Pearl IV fetches a high price when available on ebay.


Ernst Dinkla

 

[chippy]

ED, the combined VF/RF point I referred to, was to the claim that the Mamiya Six of 1940 had theirs before the Zeiss S/Ikonta. clearly thats not the case.

there can be no denying that Konica as well began with copies of the German cameras including the line of Pearl's (Zeiss) , Lily hand camera (voigtlander Bergheil) etc etc the list goes on...as i said they started changing things slightly (post war), by improving the tops (or just changing the shape)of some of these and eventually toward the end went on to include pieces of their own innovations in the german based copies, which is noticeable in the very last of the folders, though by 1958 the folders were on their last hoorarr with 35mm, press cameras and TLR's etc having gained the popularity...the end of an era i suppose...the start of the next perhaps

 

[zniv]

folks,
I'm considering to buy one as well, but before that I wanted to hear your recommendations on how much to pay for them. I use a cute Weltax for now and wonder how much i would spend for a folder with a rangefinder...
cheers
Vinz