scottyb70
Well-known
Does anyone have any tricks on how to remove the lens out of my Franka Solida folder w/o scratching the inside of the bellows. I have a tool that is metal that is purposely for removing the ring but it seems to scratch the bellows even with tape on it.
chippy
foo was here
are you trying to remove the ring with the bellows folded or extended?
scottyb70
Well-known
Closed. My tool can't get down to the ring when it is extended.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
What kind of tool are you using? I can't think how you could scratch the bellows removing the lens if you are using the right tool. Does your tool look like this? http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Spanner-Wre...ryZ43479QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
or like this? https://www.micro-tools.com/store/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=T-136-34567
If not, you are almost certainly using the wrong tool.
The INNER ring on the back removes the rear lens element. The outer one detaches the bellows. If you are removing the inner ring, then whatever you are using would have to stretch out to the sides, past the outer ring, an awful lot just to reach the bellows.
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chippy
foo was here
Scotty, thats as i expected, those cheap retaining ring tools commonly available dont have much reach...it is far better to remove the retaining ring with the bellows extended, much of the time it is the only way to do it anyway. if you try and do it while closed you can tear the bellows
you either need to buy a more exspensive tool (about a $100 from memory) from micro tools which is only any good if you have a few cameras to work on...
or if you are using the cheap painted black tool then you can cut the lower bracing bar on the tool shorter, which will allow the tool to enter the bellows area
or you can make your own tool ..a piece of steel tube or simular that is the correct diameter and ground down around the diameter leaving two notches to fit the retaining ring will work well..or any variation of home made tools (flat bar etc), lots of ways to skin a cat
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sevo
Fokutorendaburando
That is the proper way to deal with recessed retaining rings, by the way. If you read up official service documents, barely anybody ever lists or depicts a "universal lens wrench" for that purpose, but plenty of made-to-fit tubular or flat keys. Universal wrenches are really intended for LF lenses on flat boards.
Sevo
thetooth
Well-known
i did this once with a zeiss folder i had . i folded the camera and loosened the retaining ring with my spanner wrench ( i have the sk grimes versions i used the one with the points not the slotted one )
then i extended the bellows and removed the ring by hand . it's trickier to get back together .
then i extended the bellows and removed the ring by hand . it's trickier to get back together .
chippy
foo was here
Sevo, they can be a bit of a fiddle to make but they work far better, i much prefer them, certainly worth the effort to make instead of paying $100 plus shipping costs for the long microtool tool which are reasonable quality ...those cheap black painted tools on ebay or whereever are an accident waiting to happen. i remember welding one of them once at the correct spacing just so they didnt keep comming loose!
FallisPhoto
Veteran
.
What? Is this a joke? Just how would you manage to do that? If the bellows are closed (folded up), then the lower bar is going to be a good distance away from the bellows, which will be folded almost flat. When the bellows are extended is when you have bellows material in reach of the bars. Have you got some really cheap kind of lens wrench in mind with the lower bar right next to the points? With any kind of decent wrench at all, the bellows should be pretty safe folded up -- unless maybe the guy doing the work has the hand-eye coordination of a drunken and retarded champanzee.
I don't know that the tube type would be any better either -- especially if it is used with the bellows extended. Keeping the blades in the notches with a 5-inch tool, when they are right there close to you where you can see what you are doing, takes some skill. What makes you think it is going to be easier with a 9-or-10-inch tool, when you are trying to turn a nut at the bottom of a hole? Sounds like a recipe for a lot of clawed up lenses and burred slots to me.
As for universal wrenches coming loose, that's what silicone gasket sealer is for. Put a little on the threads of a universal wrench's locking bolts and they won't loosen up unless you make them do it.
chippy
foo was here
Huh, must be some sort of glitch on the forum, my post is gone! ah well, i think most of it is in yours below
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FallisPhoto
Veteran
I, on the other hand, figured he had to be talking about the ends of the cross-rods, because he is talking about taping them up. Taping up the tips wouldn't make any sense. They would rub even harder -- and wouldn't fit in the slots. If it's the tips he's talking about, and they are SCRATCHING, he is using tips that are too wide and that have burrs. The outside edges are supposed to be rounded and smooth. He's also trying to take a full turn when he only has room enough for a quarter turn.
I've got some of those I use for odd things, like a Canonet's lens elements. For those, you are going to have to grind the tips to shape and I don't want to mess up part of a $100 wrench set that will then only be good for Canonets. Also, the cheaper ones have those pencil point types that you can put together with the points backward (so they point outward). With the tips ground right, those are not going to scratch anything at all.
I don't just do folders. You're forgetting about some of the oddball plate cameras, box cameras and medium format press cameras. 9 or 10 inches is not an exaggeration, if you just want to make one set of wrenches. To be fair, I usually use tools ground out of putty knives for those.
For those kind of cameras, I usually get them just started with a wrench when the bellows are closed(even the long kind are not really long enough with the bellows extended) and then use a tool ground from a putty knife (or my fingers) to take it the rest of the way off with the bellows open or partly open. I really hate using putty knives though.
I don't care about flexing and twist. It can be a nuisance, but that won't hurt anything. Only thing that bothers me is if the things come loose and start spreading while you are working with them. A touch of silicone fixes that. Yeah, the Microtools long set is good, and I've got a set in my kit, but the tips are too expensive to grind down to fit certain cameras.
Incidentally, unless you are fond of scratched lens elements, you DON'T want to do that thing I've been hearing about where you grind down the tips of a set of needle nosed pliers. I can't believe anyone has ever done that and managed to keep both tips in the slots while using it.
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FallisPhoto
Veteran
Incidentally, this thread has helped me make up my mind on whetehr or not to get this: http://www.micro-tools.com/store/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=SP5 I just ordered it.
chippy
foo was here
handy little gadgets those things...or you could just use some needle nose pliers and hold them open
nah i am not forgeting about plate cameras, but they usually use a different size retaining flange than what you find on rollfilm cameras so you cant use that size tool anyway, also the bellows being bigger, its easier to reach inside.
with the plate cameras that use the smaller size shutters (smaller diameter, slower lenses), then you can remove the retaining ring with the bellows closed (plenty of space around the ring), with some of the midsized shutters its 50/50 whether you get the retaining flange without opening them up and with the largest size shutter taking the fastest lenses you cant get to them without placing your wrench underneath the bellows no matter open or closed, but because the bellows are bigger with bigger folds they flex enough for those wing tips on that adjustable wrench to fit under...sometimes those plate cameras have all different sorts of retaining flanges though and sometimes with no slots at all to use! i have had to on occassion drill a hole in each side of the flange and use that tool you just bought to remove the flange, handy little gadget
scottyb70
Well-known
No, what I was is I was taking apart an old zeiss super ikonta and the inner fabric was so frial the slots from the ring was scratching them up. The other problem I have now is all the shutter speeds work except for the B setting. When i move the ring to the B setting it just locks up. I can post pics. I plan on making a new bellows, I have the leather on order. It is going to be either the black or yellow.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
handy little gadgets those things...or you could just use some needle nose pliers and hold them open
nah i am not forgeting about plate cameras, but they usually use a different size retaining flange than what you find on rollfilm cameras so you cant use that size tool anyway, also the bellows being bigger, its easier to reach inside.
with the plate cameras that use the smaller size shutters (smaller diameter, slower lenses), then you can remove the retaining ring with the bellows closed (plenty of space around the ring), with some of the midsized shutters its 50/50 whether you get the retaining flange without opening them up and with the largest size shutter taking the fastest lenses you cant get to them without placing your wrench underneath the bellows no matter open or closed, but because the bellows are bigger with bigger folds they flex enough for those wing tips on that adjustable wrench to fit under...sometimes those plate cameras have all different sorts of retaining flanges though and sometimes with no slots at all to use! i have had to on occassion drill a hole in each side of the flange and use that tool you just bought to remove the flange, handy little gadget
Well, Andrew, it appears we were BOTH wrong. I can't imagine how that could ever happen. In the post right after yours, he says it is the ring itself that is scratching up the bellows. Apparently the fabric has become brittle and friable with age.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
Yep, pretty much the only option in that case is replacement. If the bellows is that bad, it is only a matter of time (pretty short) before it starts falling apart. You probably already have some splits in the corners and along the folds. You might make the fabric last a little longer by treating it with Scotchguard. It's probably too late for that though. Scotchguard works best on fabrics that are still pliable and it primarily just protects them from moisture-related damage, like mildew.
chippy
foo was here
probably because thats not what was said in the OP and no clarifaction till now, which is still not that clear!
"it" is referring to the tool/wrench. i give up
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FallisPhoto
Veteran
"I have a tool that is metal that is purposely for removing the ring but it seems to scratch the bellows even with tape on it. "
That was my understanding too, but apparently "it" refers to the ring.
Anyway, what he needs to do is contact Aki-Asahi and get some curtain material for the liner and then either also get some leatherette from them or contact Columbia Organ Leathers and get some very thin top split leather for the outer material. The heavy paper for the ribs he can get anywhere. If he's going to replace the bellows, who cares if it gets scratched up?
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I still don't understand how taping the ring or the bellows would help.
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literiter
Well-known
After I damaged a perfectly good bellows using a commercial wrench I devised another method using a piece of copper pipe that would grip the ring with the bellows extended. The pipe was about 12inches long.
I found a piece of copper pipe that was nearly the right size for a Ikonta. Cut a slot in the pipe and bashed the thing until it was the right diameter, then filed the pipe until I had two pips in the right place. I polished the pipe a little so it wouldn't catch on anything. (I'd post a pic but I loaned to someone else for a while.) It looks a little ugly but works beautifully.
I find (others may disagree) that it works best with the bellows extended.
I found a piece of copper pipe that was nearly the right size for a Ikonta. Cut a slot in the pipe and bashed the thing until it was the right diameter, then filed the pipe until I had two pips in the right place. I polished the pipe a little so it wouldn't catch on anything. (I'd post a pic but I loaned to someone else for a while.) It looks a little ugly but works beautifully.
I find (others may disagree) that it works best with the bellows extended.
scottyb70
Well-known
Thanks for all the help. I looked over the bellows and I think it should be replaced anyways too brittle.
I can't figure out which rivits to drill out to get to the bellows and where to buy new ones to replace them.
I did send 2 emails Aki Ashai but he never responded. I really want to try the shutter curtain material. At micro tools ithey have the shutter curtin but it is .2 mm thick, isn't this too thick.
I placed an order at Columbia leather organ and they were a great help, should be getting the leather soon. I am going to give making bellows a try. Ordered red and black leather. I have about 5 folders that need new bellows. So we will see what happens.
That was my understanding too, but apparently "it" refers to the ring
Yes the ring was scratching the bellows.
I can't figure out which rivits to drill out to get to the bellows and where to buy new ones to replace them.
I did send 2 emails Aki Ashai but he never responded. I really want to try the shutter curtain material. At micro tools ithey have the shutter curtin but it is .2 mm thick, isn't this too thick.
I placed an order at Columbia leather organ and they were a great help, should be getting the leather soon. I am going to give making bellows a try. Ordered red and black leather. I have about 5 folders that need new bellows. So we will see what happens.
That was my understanding too, but apparently "it" refers to the ring
Yes the ring was scratching the bellows.
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