I'm quite sure Fuji is already working on updates. They have proven with the x100 that development does not stop when the product ships.
Not in my experience.
furcafe
Veteran
If my X-Pro1 was having difficulties in focusing @ daylight EV 6, I would have already returned mine. When mine has had AF problems, it's been more like EV 4 (@ ISO 3200), so my experience so far is that it's just slower than my D700, not less accurate. I'll quibble w/your opinion that concerts don't count as low-light environments because I've shot quite a few shows in clubs where the lighting was so bad that the D700 had problems locking AF & its lame VF made it difficult to focus manually. Thus far, in similar lighting, the X-Pro1 has been slower, but just as accurate. That said, I only have the 18/2.
I'm not sure I entirely agree w/your take on the "semiotics" of the X-Pro1 as being a camera designed to be used in low light. Sure, there are plenty of people, including myself, who think of traditional RFs (particularly Leica Ms, not so much for Nikon RFs & Contax, etc.) as ideal for shooting in low light, but I don't think that's universal. Just like there were, & are, many Leicaphiles who mostly shoot in good light, but like having a small, compact camera w/great optics, there are certainly folks buying the X-Pro1 mainly because it's not a big, fat SLR & has a nice OVF. Based on Fuji's current web page (http://fujifilm-x.com/x-pro1/en/), that seems to be their target market. I haven't seen any statistical breakdown on Leica owners, for example, but it would partly account for Leica's placing such a low priority on high ISO performance in the M8 & M9. In other words, I think we low-light RF shooters are probably a niche (though a vociferous bunch) within a niche market, not the majority.
You are absolutely correct that anyone who's interested in daylight boke pr0n or night landscapes would probably be better off, at least economically, w/a standard dSLR or another mirrorless system, but then that person wouldn't get the Fuji's combo of small package w/OVF & retro good looks. And I'm guessing small package + retro looks + good daylight AF can be modestly successful, though perhaps the experience of the Contax G1 & G2 doesn't bode well.
So I don't think that you're failing "to get" anything about the X-Pro1, you just have different expectations. My expectations were for a digital G2, & those have been mostly met.
I'm not sure I entirely agree w/your take on the "semiotics" of the X-Pro1 as being a camera designed to be used in low light. Sure, there are plenty of people, including myself, who think of traditional RFs (particularly Leica Ms, not so much for Nikon RFs & Contax, etc.) as ideal for shooting in low light, but I don't think that's universal. Just like there were, & are, many Leicaphiles who mostly shoot in good light, but like having a small, compact camera w/great optics, there are certainly folks buying the X-Pro1 mainly because it's not a big, fat SLR & has a nice OVF. Based on Fuji's current web page (http://fujifilm-x.com/x-pro1/en/), that seems to be their target market. I haven't seen any statistical breakdown on Leica owners, for example, but it would partly account for Leica's placing such a low priority on high ISO performance in the M8 & M9. In other words, I think we low-light RF shooters are probably a niche (though a vociferous bunch) within a niche market, not the majority.
You are absolutely correct that anyone who's interested in daylight boke pr0n or night landscapes would probably be better off, at least economically, w/a standard dSLR or another mirrorless system, but then that person wouldn't get the Fuji's combo of small package w/OVF & retro good looks. And I'm guessing small package + retro looks + good daylight AF can be modestly successful, though perhaps the experience of the Contax G1 & G2 doesn't bode well.
So I don't think that you're failing "to get" anything about the X-Pro1, you just have different expectations. My expectations were for a digital G2, & those have been mostly met.
mouren
Established
Send it back already Dante - it's not for you
Cheers,
Dave
My thoughts and feelings exactly
dmc
Bessa Driver
Based on the comparisons being made between the X-pro 1 and DSLR's, I have to wonder what these people thought they were buying. It is not a DSLR. If you want a DSLR, return the X-Pro and get a DSLR.
Gary Sandhu
Well-known
It would probably have been satisfactory if you hadn't known better.
Or, to put it another way, your other camera experiences have spoiled you for the x pro 1.
Is there anything you can't do with your other cameras that you needed the fuji for? Video? Or just consumerism?
The last photo purchase I made was for a fuji 3d camera on clearance for $200. For fun. I've already handled it before and thought it sucked as a point and shoot but none of my other cameras can display 3D on the back LCD.
The last problem driven purchase I made was for a 85mm/1.4 Nikon for my D700 to take a specific photograph.
So was there a problem that the Fuji was meant to solve? Or was it just to review? Just something to Think of.
Or, to put it another way, your other camera experiences have spoiled you for the x pro 1.
Is there anything you can't do with your other cameras that you needed the fuji for? Video? Or just consumerism?
The last photo purchase I made was for a fuji 3d camera on clearance for $200. For fun. I've already handled it before and thought it sucked as a point and shoot but none of my other cameras can display 3D on the back LCD.
The last problem driven purchase I made was for a 85mm/1.4 Nikon for my D700 to take a specific photograph.
So was there a problem that the Fuji was meant to solve? Or was it just to review? Just something to Think of.
JHutchins
Well-known
My answer to this question is hemmed in by a bunch of constraints -- I'm not going to buy a bunch of new lenses (I don't even want to buy a bunch of new lenses -- I like mine), I do really want to shoot in dark environments. I have used this camera in places where I've been forced to ISO 6400, f1.4 & 1/5th of a second and pulled out a respectable percentage of acceptable shots. I've not owned another camera I can do that with -- I'm not sure there are other cameras I can do that with -- SLRs are much more quarrelsome at that kind of shutterspeed, M9 files just don't look that great at ISO 6400. Maybe the Sony Nex but that'd be trading one set of frustrations for an entirely new set of frustrations I think...
So what would I send it back for?
So what would I send it back for?
dreilly
Chillin' in Geneva
If there can be a lot of threads gushing over the X-1 pro, good, I enjoy reading them, and seeing the images of what that very fine sensor can do. If there are threads where the X-1 isn't working for people, those are fine too. That's what makes this a useful site--a variety of opinions. Dante could just as easily tag every X-1 pro "pro" thread with..."it's a great camera for you, so stop writing about it and get out and shoot." But he won't do that I hope and neither would I. If somebody is finding photographic zen with the X-1, that's really awesome. If someone else is disappointed and wants to send it back, then I would also like to know why. This probably saved me from an expensive investment in a system that would frustrate the (admittedly narrow) kind of thing that I get paid to shoot.
In other words, it's all good, folks, it's a discussion thread. Defensiveness on either side has no place. The X-1 Pro is really not black--or white...more of a gray tone I think, like just about everything else.
In other words, it's all good, folks, it's a discussion thread. Defensiveness on either side has no place. The X-1 Pro is really not black--or white...more of a gray tone I think, like just about everything else.
furcafe
Veteran
They may not be high end, but the RF patches on the R-D1 & the CV Bessas (& the current Zeiss Ikons) don't move, either. I believe the same goes for the Nikon SP, which certainly was high end for its era, & a few other RFs that I can't remember &/or check right now.
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Basset
Member
Well, it is a camera forum, so critical views about a relatively new model that has gotten a lot of praise seems like fair play.
Dante_Stella
Rex canum cattorumque
That's surprising to hear re the CV but even more so re the Zeiss cameras. Pretty much everything else in the last 10-15 years has had moving spots. I didn't realize my Hexar RF had one until I looked at it last night (it's been a while...)
Dante
Dante
furcafe
Veteran
Well, I know that CV does make the Zeiss Ikons for Carl Zeiss, so not a total surprise to me. The ZI does have the wider RF base, bigger VF, & other upgrades over the Bessas that may justify the Zeiss name & higher price tag.
Edit: Appears that I was partially wrong. Checked my Bessa R2C & the RF patch is parallax-corrected on that model. Maybe just some Bessa models?
On the historical side, now that I'm home & can check, the Nikon SP's RF patch is indeed stationary (same goes for the Yashica YF from the same era & which appears to have an identical RF design). The Plaubel Makina 67/670's of the '80s also have the fixed patch.
BTW, I agree that it doesn't seem be a difficult challenge for Fuji to just have the focus area in Single AF simply move around to adjust for parallax. As digitalintrigue points out, the cross hairs for Continuous AF already move around.
Edit: Appears that I was partially wrong. Checked my Bessa R2C & the RF patch is parallax-corrected on that model. Maybe just some Bessa models?
On the historical side, now that I'm home & can check, the Nikon SP's RF patch is indeed stationary (same goes for the Yashica YF from the same era & which appears to have an identical RF design). The Plaubel Makina 67/670's of the '80s also have the fixed patch.
BTW, I agree that it doesn't seem be a difficult challenge for Fuji to just have the focus area in Single AF simply move around to adjust for parallax. As digitalintrigue points out, the cross hairs for Continuous AF already move around.
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Spyro
Well-known
This is correct, but surely you knew low light AF would not be the fastest on this camera. I mean it's CDAF isnt it? I know that other CDAF cameras like m4:3 etc have faster AF, but are they really faster in low light? What these cameras really need for low light is active IR either exclusively or as a secondary system. But nobody is going to do it because it means single point AF.
Wow, great customer you are.
Back to topic: The two main flaws of the X-Pro are price / performance (its a run-of-the-mill APS-camera after all) and the implentation of manual focus "by wire".
If you dont like it, why bother with it? Fuji missed a great opportunity to be the first to market a mirrorless full frame camera to mount virtually every lens on the planet. Instead, what they came up with is one overpriced NEX with a questionable "hybrid" viewfinder thing.
I know I dont want one.
Wow, great customer you are.
Back to topic: The two main flaws of the X-Pro are price / performance (its a run-of-the-mill APS-camera after all) and the implentation of manual focus "by wire".
If you dont like it, why bother with it? Fuji missed a great opportunity to be the first to market a mirrorless full frame camera to mount virtually every lens on the planet. Instead, what they came up with is one overpriced NEX with a questionable "hybrid" viewfinder thing.
I know I dont want one.
Have you used it?
Dante_Stella
Rex canum cattorumque
Ok... here is the dirt from my discussion with one of the techs at Fuji.
1. If you have a problem you can't resolve, take the battery out of the camera for 4-6 hours. They said this is likely to do some kind of deep reset. I actually did this by accident the other night and wondered why all the things I set did not "take."
2. They said that turning off the LCD tends to reduce the power consumption, which allows the lens to focus faster(!) I tried this, and it apparently worked (or I imagined that it did). I guess the lesson here is that overall power consumption affects the speed of about everything on this camera.
3. The power consumption suggestion led me to check the power save mode and quick start modes. Turning both off removed the "hesitation" thing when focusing. Apparently power-save causes the focusing system to go into sleep mode. Sheesh. Maybe useful if you are pounding through the desert. The question in my mind is how the power save mode got switched on, unless it came that way by default. I did notice some aperture sound I hadn't heard before (which meant it must have shipped "on").
4. Something is delaying delivery of the 60mm lenses, and they are not yet even in NJ. This came up because the tech asked me if I had tried "both" lenses.
5. They don't have an X-Pro1 in the service department yet, so any advice they give you is based on recollection of camera tryouts from a session yesterday.
6. They do know about the chattering aperture blade problem (in fact, the only thing they've heard about problems).
7. They expect some kind of firmware update relatively soon. Tech speculated that it was related to #6.
8. They also asserted that the X-Pro1 does not have "focus by wire" like the X100. This is obviously not true, so take everything else with a grain of salt. Might be related to #5.
This whole battery of readjustments seems to have gotten things back to where I thought they were performing before. There are some specific things they could implement to help the camera avoid hunting (such as a soft focus limiter). That's not to say that this is quick or fun in AF, but at least it is fast enough to be functional.
I also get the feeling that I was talking to someone who used to work for Konica USA in the Hexar RF days.
Dante
1. If you have a problem you can't resolve, take the battery out of the camera for 4-6 hours. They said this is likely to do some kind of deep reset. I actually did this by accident the other night and wondered why all the things I set did not "take."
2. They said that turning off the LCD tends to reduce the power consumption, which allows the lens to focus faster(!) I tried this, and it apparently worked (or I imagined that it did). I guess the lesson here is that overall power consumption affects the speed of about everything on this camera.
3. The power consumption suggestion led me to check the power save mode and quick start modes. Turning both off removed the "hesitation" thing when focusing. Apparently power-save causes the focusing system to go into sleep mode. Sheesh. Maybe useful if you are pounding through the desert. The question in my mind is how the power save mode got switched on, unless it came that way by default. I did notice some aperture sound I hadn't heard before (which meant it must have shipped "on").
4. Something is delaying delivery of the 60mm lenses, and they are not yet even in NJ. This came up because the tech asked me if I had tried "both" lenses.
5. They don't have an X-Pro1 in the service department yet, so any advice they give you is based on recollection of camera tryouts from a session yesterday.
6. They do know about the chattering aperture blade problem (in fact, the only thing they've heard about problems).
7. They expect some kind of firmware update relatively soon. Tech speculated that it was related to #6.
8. They also asserted that the X-Pro1 does not have "focus by wire" like the X100. This is obviously not true, so take everything else with a grain of salt. Might be related to #5.
This whole battery of readjustments seems to have gotten things back to where I thought they were performing before. There are some specific things they could implement to help the camera avoid hunting (such as a soft focus limiter). That's not to say that this is quick or fun in AF, but at least it is fast enough to be functional.
I also get the feeling that I was talking to someone who used to work for Konica USA in the Hexar RF days.
Dante
Dante_Stella
Rex canum cattorumque
CDAF is not necessarily a problem with the right lens structure and processor. If you have a NEX-5, you'd probably assume that CDAF is fine (as I did). On the NEX, it is very, very fast and very definitive - even with the slow kit zoom in poor light. The GR Digital II was generally ok and also definitive. My wife's Sony Cybershot flat camera was pretty fast too - but it did not move a lot of glass. I think "hunting" behavior is something that happens when software is not set up to just call it a "fail" when the camera can't find focus.
Phase detect computes a focus point and goes to it. It's not great for lenses that have focus shift as they stop down (but that can be fixed in software). Fuji has implemented this on at least one point-and-shoot; it's weird that it hasn't made it into a more serious camera. It might require more programming, but conceptually, a phase detect focus sensor (a strip or cross of CCDs) isn't really that different from the imager in a digital camera.
Active AF has some limitations, like parallax. It also may not be accurate enough for a lens as fast as f/1.4. It generally resolves to some number of steps (up to 900, I believe) between minimum focus and infinity.
Dante
Phase detect computes a focus point and goes to it. It's not great for lenses that have focus shift as they stop down (but that can be fixed in software). Fuji has implemented this on at least one point-and-shoot; it's weird that it hasn't made it into a more serious camera. It might require more programming, but conceptually, a phase detect focus sensor (a strip or cross of CCDs) isn't really that different from the imager in a digital camera.
Active AF has some limitations, like parallax. It also may not be accurate enough for a lens as fast as f/1.4. It generally resolves to some number of steps (up to 900, I believe) between minimum focus and infinity.
Dante
gavinlg
Veteran
This is like rule no.1 of the fuji X ownership club - turn quick start ON and turn power save OFF. If anyone is using their x100 or x-pro with power save on, you're losing at life. AF is much quicker with it disabled. It says this in the manual too.
Dante_Stella
Rex canum cattorumque
Nice of them to ship the camera that way (probably to bolster claims about battery life).
I just got back from a week in Peru with my X100, and with that mode off, particularly if it's warm out, you'd be very suprised at how fast even an OEM battery will lose it - something like 1.5 cards @2Gb (so like 135 exposures). Usually, I am near reliable electricity - on that trip, it was pretty much a nail-biting 3-battery rotation due to the power consumption.
If you've just finished hiking to the top of Huayna Picchu, there are no re-does!
Dante
I just got back from a week in Peru with my X100, and with that mode off, particularly if it's warm out, you'd be very suprised at how fast even an OEM battery will lose it - something like 1.5 cards @2Gb (so like 135 exposures). Usually, I am near reliable electricity - on that trip, it was pretty much a nail-biting 3-battery rotation due to the power consumption.
If you've just finished hiking to the top of Huayna Picchu, there are no re-does!
Dante
gavinlg
Veteran
That's interesting - I seem to be able to get well over 300 exposures out of my x100... probably over 500 if I pushed it. In fact I've never had the battery run out. But I use OVF all the time, no LCD, and don't chimp very much at all. What are you doing that's using so much battery?