Anyone use Tetenal, Neofin Blau?

[Pirate]

My photo buddy says Tetenal is one of the best companies but it's only a German company. He's getting me some Neofin Blau which is their best developer to try out.

Anyone here use it before? Good, bad...??

 

[Tom A]

The Neofin Blau is a version of the Beutler developer. I have used both version - and keep using the "home made" version steadily.
It gives a true filmspeed (box speed), edges are sharp and mid-tone and shadow detail is good, It is sensitive to agitation - you can quickly loose highlight details with over agitation.
With slow (25/50/100 iso film) - you get amazing sharpness - and you also quickly find out how good you are a focussing. It does not tolerate sloppy habits!
With medium speed films (Tri X/HP5/Neopan 400) - you get a bit accentuated grain - but sharp edges. Unless you intend to print large stuff 16x20 and up - it is palatable.
If you start liking it - The Neofin Blue and find it difficult to keep in stock. Just start making your own - it is a simple formula and you can play with dilutions to get the look you want.

 

[Pirate]

Tom, you're a genius! Where can I find the chemical charts to mix my own??

 

[Edward C. Zimmermann]

Tyou get amazing sharpness - and you also quickly find out how good you are a focussing. It does not tolerate sloppy habits!

Tongue in cheek humor aside.. Neofin Blau is just another developer like other B&W developers. The results are not terribly different from dilute Rodinal but easier to "get right". It was formulated to tame the contrast of early Adox formulations. It does not create any additional resolution to whatever the film can deliver at the pictorial contrast and tonality desired. Any feeling of "sharpness" is an optical illusion derived from the grain--- that's why film with finest grain and highest resolving power often appear sharp than their slightly grainer counterparts.

 

[Edward C. Zimmermann]

Tom, you're a genius! Where can I find the chemical charts to mix my own??

The developer mentioned in "Meine Dunklekammer Praxis" from Willi Beutler is given in the book using combinations of A, B, C and D solutions.

For slow films one can use the 20 parts Water + 2 Parts A + 1 Part C where

A is: 2g Calgon (not needed if you use "distilled" water), 10g Metol, 50g Sodium Sulfit sicc. (andhydrous) into 1 liter of Water (heated to 40c)

C is: 5g Calgon (again not needed if you used "distilled" water), 100g Soda sicc. (waterfree or anhydrous sodium carbonate called also "soda ash") into water.

Both these solution keep relatively well but once you mix the developer it should be used. Starting developing times etc. as with Neofin Blau.

 

[Pirate]

Re: C, "into water" -- into how much water?

 

[Tom A]

Tom, you're a genius! Where can I find the chemical charts to mix my own??

Just Google "Beutler Film developer" and you will get the formula and lots of user recommendations in regards to time and dilutions.
Diluted Rodinal is close - but not exactly the same. It has a tendency to go a bit "flat" in contrast, whilst the Beutler has a bit more 'snap" to it.
I usually mix 1000 ml of the A and 1000 ml of the B solution. With 400 iso film I use a 1 part A, 1 part B and 8 parts of water and as a starting point - Tri X/HP5/Neopan 400 do 11 minutes with 3 inversions every 60 sec.
With slower films like PanF/Acros/Delta 100 is use a 1:1:10 dilution and around 6-7 minutes with agitation every 60 sec.
The stock solution last easily 4-6 weeks and will give you enough to do 30 rolls.
If you get "bulk" chemistry - it is very cheap to do. I figure out around $0,10 -to $0,15/roll - depending on your chemical costs.
The ADOX films look amazing with it - in particular the 25 iso version.

If you are shooting in extremely contrasty light with Acros (the one that I tried). Agitate for the first 3 minutes on the miute, then every 2 minutes - or you can leave it sitting for the remaining 4 minutes. Seems to "tame" the highlights a bit.
The good thing with doing your own - you can "program" your film and developer to your own shooting style very easy.

 

[Tom A]

The developer mentioned in "Meine Dunklekammer Praxis" from Willi Beutler is given in the book using combinations of A, B, C and D solutions.

For slow films one can use the 20 parts Water + 2 Parts A + 1 Part C where

A is: 2g Calgon (not needed if you use "distilled" water), 10g Metol, 50g Sodium Sulfit sicc. (andhydrous) into 1 liter of Water (heated to 40c)

C is: 5g Calgon (again not needed if you used "distilled" water), 100g Soda sicc. (waterfree or anhydrous sodium carbonate called also "soda ash") into water.

Both these solution keep relatively well but once you mix the developer it should be used. Starting developing times etc. as with Neofin Blau.

Edward, I tried that combination - but I found that it really did not make much of a difference from the 2 part version. I suspect that it would have worked very well with the old ADOX films - but the newer ADOX emulsion is a bit different. Both are of course as sensitive to scratching when wet!

 

[ChrisN]

Tom, you're a genius! Where can I find the chemical charts to mix my own??

http://www.jackspcs.com/fdnb.htm

 

[Pirate]

Thanks, Tom.

Thanks, Chris, I did a little googling and found that page too.

Got my Neofin Blau in today but I forgot to take the film from the fridge so it's still cold. I'm letting everything get to room temp before I start, probably this evening (it's 2:30pm here now).

I can't wait to see some of these shots of Paris!!

 

[Edward C. Zimmermann]

Re: C, "into water" -- into how much water?

1 Liter.

Just Google "Beutler Film developer" and you will get the formula and lots of user recommendations in regards to time and dilutions.

For historical and correct attribution there is not a "formula" but a collection and a system.

Diluted Rodinal is close - but not exactly the same. It has a tendency to go a bit "flat" in contrast, whilst the Beutler has a bit more 'snap" to it.

Rodinal can be tuned. A dash of salt, a pinch of borax or a bit of sulfite.. But.. yes.. every developer is a bit different.. and agitation makes also a difference..

I usually mix 1000 ml of the A and 1000 ml of the B solution. With 400 iso film I use a 1 part A,

That's not terribly good for these films. Its a bit too hard.

Solution B:
- 1 liter water 40C.
- 50g Sodium Sulfit sicc.
- 10g Hydrochinon

And to complete the set:

Solution D:
- 100 ml water
- 10g Potassium Bromide

The ADOX films look amazing with it - in particular the 25 iso version..

Please beware that the current users of the ADOX trademark registered the mark after it was abandoned. Today's ADOX is unrelated other than name to the Adox Fotowerke Dr. C. Schleussner GmbH. The films with which Willi Beutler wrote of have been long out of production.

Re: the 25 iso film.. I'm not a great fan of Ekfe PAN25. Its no replacement for Agfa APX 25 and if I don't need speed and desire extreme sharpness then I might as well reach for microfilm--- which I sometimes do.

Edward, I tried that combination - but I found that it really did not make much of a difference from the 2 part version.

The point of the 2 part (A+C) version is simply to make things easier. The solutions are easier to mix and have reasonable keeping properties. The mixed developer does not.

I suspect that it would have worked very well with the old ADOX films - but the newer ADOX emulsion is a bit different.

Of course. One needs to also distinguish these days as to what film one is speaking of. In ADOX boxes are a number of different films. I'll assume here you mean the CHS series which are from Fotokemika Nova (Efke). I think they have had to change things a few times.. One can only so long produce from Orwo rests.. I think they now use a more modern polyester base.. (but not sure as I've not used the film for years)

Both are of course as sensitive to scratching when wet!

Those Efke films are not in the same league as those from Agfa, Ilford, Kodak or Fuji. People who use Efke materials these days do so, I think, for the scratches and emulsion inconsistencies.

 

[Pirate]

Thanks for that, it's one heck of a helping hand to hear those details.

I've started my first two rolls of Rollei Pan 25 in the Neofin Blau. I'm half way through the development stage. I did easy agitation for the first minute, then once every minute. About 4 minutes left. I'll post back when these two rolls are done. I hope this comes out ok.

P^)

 

[Pirate]

I'm in the Fixer stage.

The Neofin turned RED! Started out as clear. This is Awesome!!! I can't believe I didn't start developing my own stuff 20 years ago!

 

[Pirate]

Two rolls hanging to dry, one has Jim Morrisons grave on it.....

I love this stuff!

 

[Edward C. Zimmermann]

I've started my first two rolls of Rollei Pan 25 in the Neofin Blau.

That's another film and not Efke 25. Its made by Filmotec (one of the tiny rests of VEB Orwo aka original Agfa Wolfen) as an Orwo NP15. NP15 too was no APX25 but....

 

[Pirate]

Wow, that's a lot of stuff I didn't understand there. Could you break that up into little words, please?? It sounds really interesting.

 

[Fotohuis]

The ADOX films look amazing with it - in particular the 25 iso version.

Indeed a very good combination.

About Beutler A+B (A very simple formulae):

http://www.flickr.com/groups/1104010@N24/discuss/72157620677933656/

You can improve the acutance a very little bit by adding a drop of PotassiumIodide (KI) like the FX-1 formulae, see above link, which is e.g. used in Amaloco X10 fixer tester.

Rollei Pan 25 has been made by Filmotec, former OrWo (ORginal WOlfen) which is based on the NP15 film technology.

Here an (35mm) example of Rollei Pan 25 in AM50, Amaloco Pyrocatechine developer, like Windisch, now discontinued.

And an (35mm) example of Efke 25 in Beutler 1+1+10. Apart from the high definition and acutance a very cheap developer to DIY.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/fotohuisrovo/205627285/ (Pan 25)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/fotohuisrovo/3531595018/ (Efke 25)

best regards,

Robert

 

[Edward C. Zimmermann]

About Beutler A+B (A very simple formulae):

http://www.flickr.com/groups/1104010@N24/discuss/72157620677933656/

Fine and dandy but not Beutler's recipe. Its particularly wrong to attribute that above to Beutler since his B bath contains Sodium Sulfite and Hydrochinon while its the C bath that contains Soda but in a very different concentation: 10% (100g Soda sicc. per Liter water).
For slow speed thin film (e.g. Adox of the day) development he then mixes 500 ml water + 50 ml A + 25mm C for 575ml of developing solution. While the final developer mixed from the above A/B who-knows-whose developer is more of less the same as that specified by Willi Beutler its incorrect to call them "Beutler" unless one can show where he published them as such. To my knowledge it was never published as such by him. To also correctly specify the recipe one should also list Calgon (2g/l in A, 2g/l in B, 5g/l in C) as they were formulated for (hard) tap water. Calgon (Sodium Hexametaphosphate) was (and is) a common calcium sequestering agent to limit the formation of mineral scum.

For paper he uses combinations of A, B, C and D.
A soft paper developer, for example, is specified as 1 part A + 1 part C + 5 drops of D into 100 ml.
A hard working paper developer, by contrast, is specified as 2 parts A + 6 parts B + 5 parts C + 5 drops of D into 100 ml.

 

[Pirate]

That is great info, thanks guys.

"To my knowledge it was never published as such by him."

So all the formulas out there are still not his original formula?

 

[Fotohuis]

So all the formulas out there are still not his original formula?

Beutler A+B has been published by Udo Raffay, the German chemist, Sammlung Fotografischer Rezepte, page 46 and FX-1 (modified Beutler) page 47. The difference between KI or not is in practice very small.

With above Beutler recept you will find very satisfactory results with all single layer Efke films (Efke 25-50-100 and IR820).

Tetenal Neofin Blau /Blue has been modified during the years. Compared with above ingredients it's an expensive developer.

AM50 (Amaloco) was a modified Pyrocatechine (Brenzkatechin in German) surface developer according Windisch.

Beutler A+B made with Destilled or Demi- (or R.O.) water will give very good results for a very small price. Good water you can make yourself by installing a Brita (TM) filter in your tap water. It's an Anion-Kation with carbon filter, very suitable to make photographic water. Especially after boiling your amount of Oxygen is neglectible.

Alternative for Efke - Beutler development is Rodinal 1+50.

Best regards,

Robert