Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Depth of field is not really a problem with live focus on a DSLR because an SLR lens is aways being focused at it's maximum aperture and that's a fairly narrow field of focus ... it stops down as you take the shot.
Just because the rangefinder is not transmitting that depth of field it doesn't necessarilly mean it's more accurate IMO ... all it means is the rangefinder will always focus at the centre point or there abouts of that depth of field provided you don't have a front focusing or back focusing lens! With a DSLR you can see that depth of field and work within it choosing to use either end of it.
Critical focusing on a tripod with the camera on live view and the review image magnified is about as precise as you can possibly get! I'm also not getting this theory about a rangefinder being more accurate.
LCT
ex-newbie
True of course but not with manual lenses obviously. This is the problem with EVILs and Leica or other manual lenses. In spite of focus peaking and other gizmos it is often necessary to focus at full aperture in the first place and then stop down before shooting. In the meantime we've taken 2 or 3 shots with our dear old (or new) rangefinders. Decisive moment?
BobYIL
Well-known
“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.”- Sir Winston Churchill
The harshest criticism coming from family members; i.e. dedicated Leica users, the actual users, who want to use their Leicas as practical tools to turn out photographs rather than using them as prestige objects.
1. Monochrome conversion: A fanfare since months, a grand fuss about “Essentials” to keep masses anticipate with excitement about what sort of golden egg Leica would lay this time. The egg: The same M9 with a tiny modification of color filter removal, actually what maxmax.com has been performing since 1999. Send your M9 and have it turned into M9M in couple of days.
http://www.maxmax.com/ircameraconversions.htm
2. Apo-Summicron: Mr. Karbe can claim it being Hubble-quality however the proof of the pudding is in the eating: Ming Thein’s comparison of the Apo-Summicron against the lowly Planar has answered all the questions we wanted to inquire. Ming Thein’s comparison of the D800E vs. Leica S2 also shed a “bright” light about where the digital is going to but also on where Leica are...
Our criticism is not to bash Leica but rather to get their attention on what actual Leica users are needing in 2012 and the years afterwards. It is up to Leica to listen to these or to spend their resources to turn out some products to flatter the egos of some well-heeled customers. How many Anton Bruckner versions, how many 1.2/50 Noctilux or 35/1.4 ASPHERICALs are in the actual use today?
Morgan have its followers, Porsche have too.. Both exhibit conservative lines however the former one is admired for sticking to a fossilized concept, the latter one is praised for being amongst who lead automotive engineering. And everyone knows that a Morgan can not turn into a Porsche no matter how much you invest in it.
Time for Leica to leave "theater" and palliative pursuits aside to concentrate on real digital engineering if they want to be praised by real Leica users too.. Otherwise everything is "Paris Hilton" in many eyes..
Just my two cents..
The harshest criticism coming from family members; i.e. dedicated Leica users, the actual users, who want to use their Leicas as practical tools to turn out photographs rather than using them as prestige objects.
1. Monochrome conversion: A fanfare since months, a grand fuss about “Essentials” to keep masses anticipate with excitement about what sort of golden egg Leica would lay this time. The egg: The same M9 with a tiny modification of color filter removal, actually what maxmax.com has been performing since 1999. Send your M9 and have it turned into M9M in couple of days.
http://www.maxmax.com/ircameraconversions.htm
2. Apo-Summicron: Mr. Karbe can claim it being Hubble-quality however the proof of the pudding is in the eating: Ming Thein’s comparison of the Apo-Summicron against the lowly Planar has answered all the questions we wanted to inquire. Ming Thein’s comparison of the D800E vs. Leica S2 also shed a “bright” light about where the digital is going to but also on where Leica are...
Our criticism is not to bash Leica but rather to get their attention on what actual Leica users are needing in 2012 and the years afterwards. It is up to Leica to listen to these or to spend their resources to turn out some products to flatter the egos of some well-heeled customers. How many Anton Bruckner versions, how many 1.2/50 Noctilux or 35/1.4 ASPHERICALs are in the actual use today?
Morgan have its followers, Porsche have too.. Both exhibit conservative lines however the former one is admired for sticking to a fossilized concept, the latter one is praised for being amongst who lead automotive engineering. And everyone knows that a Morgan can not turn into a Porsche no matter how much you invest in it.
Time for Leica to leave "theater" and palliative pursuits aside to concentrate on real digital engineering if they want to be praised by real Leica users too.. Otherwise everything is "Paris Hilton" in many eyes..
Just my two cents..
LCT
ex-newbie
Not sure whom the criticisms you refer to come from but Leica have never sold cheap products so far. Even the Leica CL was not available to all. There are PanaLeicas, CV, CZ and Canikon for that. So what is it all about those mysterious complaints exactly?
MCTuomey
Veteran
What you said:
And
What I said:
What you said:
Nah, you didn't "say" it. You just may have implied and argued it. Though I expect you'll split hairs and insist you didn't.
For a scientist of your calibre, and a layman of my calibre (who only strives to take good photos with M-bodies, on & off tripods, with and without flash), the playing field isn't level. I'm on the losing side.
The potential this lens has to produce finely detailed very large prints, superior to any made before, from an M-body seems apparent to me. Jaap and others who've seen prints made from the lens and the M9M have been impressed. Anecdotal? Yes. More meaningful than Ming Thein's comparison? To me, yes. I don't know a better way to judge camera+lens capability other than seeing prints. Big, critically difficult ones.
I'm sure some folks felt that historical improvements in lenses, say from a summarit 50 f/1.5 to a v1 lux 50 f/1.5 or a pre-asph lux to an asph lux, would be lost to the basic inefficiencies of hand-held, small format photography. But people bought and used the new lenses, and continue to do so today. Results improved. Stem the tide, semilog ...
And
What I said:
MCTuomey said:
What you said:
Nah, you didn't "say" it. You just may have implied and argued it. Though I expect you'll split hairs and insist you didn't.
For a scientist of your calibre, and a layman of my calibre (who only strives to take good photos with M-bodies, on & off tripods, with and without flash), the playing field isn't level. I'm on the losing side.
The potential this lens has to produce finely detailed very large prints, superior to any made before, from an M-body seems apparent to me. Jaap and others who've seen prints made from the lens and the M9M have been impressed. Anecdotal? Yes. More meaningful than Ming Thein's comparison? To me, yes. I don't know a better way to judge camera+lens capability other than seeing prints. Big, critically difficult ones.
I'm sure some folks felt that historical improvements in lenses, say from a summarit 50 f/1.5 to a v1 lux 50 f/1.5 or a pre-asph lux to an asph lux, would be lost to the basic inefficiencies of hand-held, small format photography. But people bought and used the new lenses, and continue to do so today. Results improved. Stem the tide, semilog ...
rdeleskie
Well-known
So, where does this leave us? Yesterday, according to leica aficionados, the "classic" Summicron was the finest f2 50mm lens made, the reference against which all others were judged, impervious to changes in technology for more than thirty years because it was close to perfection. Today, it's okay for "Joe Average" because a new, exponentially more expensive lens has been released. A lens which so far in objective testing shows marginal improvement over the older one, let alone the lesser Zeiss that is manufactured in Japan and costs 1/10th the price.
I don't mean to insult you, but when I read words like this I don't hear a photographer talking, I hear a fetishish. And they seem to re-enforce the old stereotype that Leica fans will pay any amount of money, regardless of the real-world results, just to prove they are not Joe Average.
I will wait to see more results, but so far it looks to me like Leica jumped the shark with this one.
Nigel Meaby
Well-known
I imagine since Ming has taken the photo's and has the raw files to work from, made with this lens and a Monochrom body he will have probably knocked out a few prints
He did after all have the camera and lens to use for a substantial loan period.
Richard G
Veteran
If the S2 and its lenses are not a con, then neither is the 50 AA. If I was making money from larger prints and resisting moving to MF the new Summicron might just keep me at 35mm at a considerable saving. And this goes for a number of non Leica non Rangefinder 35mm FF users, professional, using Leica lenses now from what I hear.
N.delaRua
Well-known
So what I've learned is the following.
1) The D800E is technically very good.
2) The MM is technically very good.
3) The D800E does not lose much to the S2, and gains quickly as noise rises.
4) The MM is comparable in many instances to the D800E ipso facto the MM does not lose much to the S2.
5) The D800E and MM produce very nice B&W pictures which can be printed extremely large and hold fantastic definition that we would struggle to produce with film emulsions.
6) The 50 AA is also technically very good.
7) People are very upset by how well these products perform.
8) I don't know why.....
1) The D800E is technically very good.
2) The MM is technically very good.
3) The D800E does not lose much to the S2, and gains quickly as noise rises.
4) The MM is comparable in many instances to the D800E ipso facto the MM does not lose much to the S2.
5) The D800E and MM produce very nice B&W pictures which can be printed extremely large and hold fantastic definition that we would struggle to produce with film emulsions.
6) The 50 AA is also technically very good.
7) People are very upset by how well these products perform.
8) I don't know why.....
EdwardKaraa
Well-known
MCTuomey
Veteran
+2 to "well said" (count me in the side that's not upset or indignant or whatever)
MCTuomey
Veteran
I imagine since Ming has taken the photo's and has the raw files to work from, made with this lens and a Monochrom body he will have probably knocked out a few prints
Good point - I'll reread the review to see whether he comments on them.
f16sunshine
Moderator
semilog
curmudgeonly optimist
Words mean what words mean, MC. How about you criticize what I said rather than what you imagine I said.
BobYIL
Well-known
Nobody is upset, however some are thinking with a different logic than yours:
- Does it worth to have your right leg amputated to lose weight? (Where is "color" gone with the Monochrom?)
- For some to pay $7.195 for a 50/2 lens while another one costing $768 to do 95% of the former seems utterly unjustifiable.
- To do what a D800E can, one needs to buy an MM but also a D800E.. (Think about it..)
To decide about buying or not buying them is a personal choice, however to state what we think about them in a photographic forum is a personal right. So nobody needs to feel offended.
horosu
Well-known
semilog
curmudgeonly optimist
If Thein is right, the Planar's maximum T-stop is 125% that of the 'cron AA.
And the Bugatti's performance edge over the Camaro is not difficult to demonstrate.
back alley
IMAGES
let's try a little harder to get along folks...
Moriturii
Well-known
I think this topic has come to its conclusion, and at this point people are just yelling into each others mouths. Can we close this thread please?