Are FSU rangefinders as bad as they say?

[Forest_rain]

I started a thread on another forum called "Good Russian Cameras?" And the fairly humorous and almost unanimous response was "This question is an oxymoron".

Seems like the reputation of Russian engineering is being rickity, unreliable, and retrograde. How true is this?

Regarding rangefinders, the lenses seem decent. However, it seems that many people stay clear of the bodies.

Does this hold true for rangefinders as well as SLRs made in FSU? I haven't had great luck with Praktica SLRs, supposedly on the high end of FSU gear, but I eventually ended up with a good Praktica BMS that functions great on the 3rd try.

Was I just unlucky or is this situation common?

 

[newst]

The overall category of "FSU Rangefinders" is too broad for me to cover. You have Kiev and LTM mount cameras, with an almost bewildering variation within each category. I will restrict my comments to the one camera I personally own, a FED-2.

The FED-2 was a Barnack competitor. Unlike the original FED camera it was certainly not a copy of the Leica, for example, Soviet engineering provided some significant improvements over the thread mount Leica.

The FED-2 had a removable back, eliminating the need to trim leaders for bottom loading the camera.

The FED-2 combined the viewfinder and rangefinder into a single eyepiece. No need to focus in one then switch to frame in the other.

The FED-2 had a greater distance between the rangefinder windows, making more accurate focusing possible.

At the same time, the Leica had a superior finish and internals that were produced to higher tolerances, allowing for smoother and quieter operation.

The FED-2 also had a funky design that required the shooter to advance the film before changing shutter speed. Do it in the wrong order and your camera will need to be repaired.

Leica rangefinders were designed to be premium products, used by people with the resources to afford them. The FED, in all its iterations, was a camera for the masses. Even so, the FED-2 had some engineering design elements that Leica (and Canon, Nikon, Nicca etc.) didn't adopt until later.

 

[nzeeman]

agree! fed 2 is awesome camera. size and looks are for me just perfect-and it works really fine-has also diopter adjustment, long rf base.. only diwnside is lack of slow speeds - but has bulb-with some skill u can pull off 1/15 which is anyway lowest you can go handheld...

 

[Forest_rain]

Interesting. I'm thinking about picking up a Zorki 6 because it apparently does not have the problem of having to change the shutter speed after cocking the shutter only. I'm not sure what other models can do this but maybe the Zorki 5 as well.


I almost bought a Zorki 6 but I stopped myself because of the bad reputation, and I didn't know much about this model.

 

[webOSUser]

FED2 is a good camera.

FED2 is a good camera.

I have had a good experience with FSU cameras, one of them a FED2. When I operate them correctly, they take great pictures.

I think that the bad reputation that FSU camera bodies have gotten is due to a combination of poor manufacturing quality control added to a lack of maintenance since manufacture. Somebody is more likely to send a Leiica in for maintenance than a FED or Zorki. And there are more places to send Leicas for maintenance, than and FSU camera.



Steve W.

 

[David Hughes]

A long time ago a lot of threads encouraged people to do their own repairs and that led to a lot of cameras being ruined (and then sold on). If they are looked after they are OK but, like all cameras, they do need routine maintenance. Look at the dates when they were made, meaning the late 1940's onwards and you'll realise that age has a lot to do with their condition. Add in the fact that digital reared its ugly head in the 90's and you'll realise that a lot were stored away and forgotten until online auctions came along.

My experience of them is that they are no different from any other camera. It all depends on their history and previous owners.

The original FED(1) and Zorki(1) are great cameras but a bit old fashioned like the original Leicas; although the RF's are better being tinted. Also the Zorki takes a normal cable release and then later on the FEDs did.

The Zorki 6 is a very conventional RF that I have had no trouble with; so are the FED 2's and 3's but I have not used the others.

If you look in the thread about the worst cameras you won't find any mention of FED or Zorki but a lot of mentions for Japanese and German cameras.

I am always amazed at the number of people who knew what was going on in the old USSR before the Cold War ended and often before they were born.

Regards, David

PS Prakticas were made in Germany and few see that as part of the Soviet Union, although it was behind the "Iron Curtain".

 

[Forest_rain]

PS Prakticas were made in Germany and few see that as part of the Soviet Union, although it was behind the "Iron Curtain".

I know what you mean, but they were made in East Germany. I don't know why, but I have had much fewer issues with west German cameras. Rolleiflexes, etc., enjoy a good reputation as well.

The prakticas I've had (LTL3, BX20, BMS) just don't seem as well designed or "solid" as Japanese cameras, although the lenses are amazing. My LTL3 had a cracked film sprocket which is a fault in this model which caused the film spacing to go off. The BX20 arrived completely unworking. My BMS works fine but sometimes I have to fiddle with the battery to get the meter to turn on, and the top of the shutter speed selector came off (just a plate to mark the shutter speed numbers). It was just glued on. I glued it back. It just seems like the QC is not so great. This is just my anecdotal experience. But again the lenses are great.

I haven't had any of these kind of weird issues with Japanese cameras.

 

[xayraa33]

Best FSU cameras are the Kiev 35mm RF cameras except for the last models Kiev 4M and Kiev 4 AM..any Kiev RF camera before 1973 was good and the 1950s ones are the best but they are all old cameras now..and kitchen table repairs could have taken their toll, these are still complex cameras...most need new ribbons anyways as standard maintenance if they were regularly used. Pre 1966 Zorki 4s are not bad but again it depends on how it has been serviced and by whom.

My experience with FSU gear is the luck of the draw...sometimes you get a good one and many times you don't.

 

[Franko]

My Fed I is loaded and waiting on my table, just like it's been for about twelve years. It's the only non-adjustable diopter camera I own that works with my 72 year old right eye. It's never failed, once I traded
take up spools and got one that worked. I also have a IIIa and a IIIf that only go with me when I'm out just for picture making. Maybe I got lucky but I'm perfectly happy to drop it in a jacket pocket with a reasonable assumption that it will soldier on.

 

[Phil_F_NM]

Like every other older camera, they all need maintenance and often some custom fitting of parts.
Phil Forrest

 

[steveyork]

I know the early (ie, the 1950's) Kiev II and III are highly regarded. I had a pair ('51 and '52) for awhile and they functioned just like the pre-war Contax which I have now. Ha, ha, just better lenses because they were coated. I've read more then a few times, from people who have had them part, they are pretty much the same as a pre-war Contax II or III. Fine cameras, the early ones. Apparently their quality went down hill over time.

 

[santino]

I think only cameras with slow shutter speeds can get damaged by changing speeds before cocking the shutter (with Leica style shutter). There are excellent FSU cameras (Zorki 1 - 3, Fed 1 - 2, early Kievs etc). Keep in mind that although most older examples are build to higher standards they are old and may need service. I think there was no periodic CLA in the FSU...

 

[Dralowid]

I am always amazed at the number of people who knew what was going on in the old USSR before the Cold War ended and often before they were born.

Would this not have something to do with the internet? An anonymous forum where comments gleaned from elsewhere are presented as first hand experience?

I visited a printers behind the Iron Curtain in the early '70s. My liver has only recently recovered.

 

[wolves3012]

I don't think there's a definite answer to the question, I think it all depends. Ask someone who has bought two or three 'lemons' and they'll say they're all rubbish. I think you need to see the context of their production, which was (nearly all) due to a planned economy with target numbers to make. In that situation, QC almost has to take a back seat. Then there's the provenance.

The general opinion is that older ones tend to be better made, something my experience suggests is largely true. However, it also seems to be true that corners were cut in later models (simplifying things, lower quality materials etc) so I suppose the end result shouldn't be a surprise. Mass-production for export purposes cannot have helped matters either.

Then there's the history of the individual example - has it been serviced, how often and by whom? There's also the wear and tear on a camera that is invariably quite old. I think the fact that most of them still do work reasonably well or are serviceable is actually quite remarkable in itself.

FSUs were always cheap, so I'd guess few of them ever went to a professional repairer for service. The original lubricants were not high quality, modern lubricants can make a huge difference, in my experience.

Just to throw in my own contribution: I've bought maybe 20 or so FSUs over the years. One was a basket case but I knew that, it was bought cheaply as a parts-donor. Nearly all of them needed some TLC, from a simple CLA to curtain replacements. Bar the parts-donor, all of them worked somewhere between adequately and well. None of them cost me much money.

P.S. there's a thread on here as to which FSUs can safely have the shutter speed changed before cocking and which cannot. However, there are two points to note. 1) it makes no sense on many models because the rotating dial can't show the set speed until cocked. 2) you have to be ham-fisted and force the winder actually to break the mechanism, although you can get them into a tangle, (mechanically speaking).

 

[kamil_k]

In order to answer the question we should make sure that we are comparing apples to apples. If we are speaking about soviet cameras which have never seen a professional service since they were manufactured (40-50 years) then noone should expect reliability. This however applies to any camera. I had several Zorkis 4K and Feds which have never undergone any maintenance. In most of the cases there were some issues with the shutter - especially noticeable in winter. But - I also had a Leica M5 which had also never been CLA'd before - guess which problems I had with it ...

Currently I own a Kiev 4A and Fed 3 - both CLA'd. They run smoothly, so far didn't show any issues and it is a pure pleasure to shoot with them. Due to convinience I prefer the FED3 - it just fits my hand perfectly and it has the advance lever. Built quality seems to be much beter than Zorki 4K - much more solid.
I also sent my M5 for CLA - after spending a small fortune it also runs smoothly and didn't show any issues so far. The built quality is of course not comparable to the FSU rangefinders, but all of those cameras serve their purpose.

The question is however who else is willing to spent at least 200$ for CLA of a soviet camera?

 

[David Hughes]

P.S. there's a thread on here as to which FSUs can safely have the shutter speed changed before cocking and which cannot. However, there are two points to note. 1) it makes no sense on many models because the rotating dial can't show the set speed until cocked. 2) you have to be ham-fisted and force the winder actually to break the mechanism, although you can get them into a tangle, (mechanically speaking).

I've often wondered where and how this started; I looked in a FED 2's English instruction manual last night and there's no reference to it and yet it persists.

That reminds me that for the first model the instruction manuals were only available in Russian, probably because they were not exported until the late 1950's and/or early 60's when the FED-2 became available labelled in Cyrillic and Roman lettering with the earliest English FED instruction manual I have seen. So most people buying them online would have struggled to understand them.

Now looking at the FED-3 manual it mentions a restriction when setting the shutter speeds but that is to the effect that the speed's settings should be moved in the direction 30, B, 500, 250 to 2, 1 and back but never between 30 and 1.

There's something similar in the Zorki(-1) manual but the copy I have is in Russian. I think it says you should not move the setting between Z and 500 but go the long way round. (Edit) The manual says "В интервале межлу Z-500 диск поворачивать нельзя" and typing that in Cyrillic and using Google we get "In the interval between Z-500, the disc cannot be turned". Oddly enough they copied the Latin or Roman letter "Z" for this...

And in the Zorki-6's English manual it says "Never rotate the dial within the interval between "B" and "500", as in this instance the mechanism is likely to be damaged."

The Zorki 4's appear to be the first exported and I guess none before then had English manuals and so the same confusion may have arisen.

Looking quickly at the Leningrad, I suggest owners of them get a copy of Audrey Ostapenko's excellent English version of the instruction manual as it's a bit complicated...

Obviously they all say the speed should be set after cocking the shutter.

Anyway, there's another reason why damaged FEDs and Zorkis may be around but it's nothing to do with QC at the factory.

BTW, the first FEDs appeared in the UK in the 1940's when 1 or 2 came back from the USSR with visiting servicemen. They were rare enough to get a few pages of description and photographs in magazines at the time, plus a follow up letter saying how nice an RAF man thought his one was and in some ways better than a Leica.

Regards, David

PS Look at any make of camera for sale on line and you'll be amazed how few are sold with manuals. It makes me wonder if they were ever used and might account for the abuse some makes get from later owners.

 

[Axel]

I had and used a Kiev66 and a FED2 and several FSU-lenses.
Everything worked fine. No complaints.

 

[valdas]

I currently have Kiev 4A from 1969 and it is troublefree. However, I grew up in FSU (Lithuania) and soviet cameras in general were not well regarded. Most Pros (journalists or private wedding photographers) were using at least East German Pentacons or Prakticas (if they could not obtain something Japanese or West German - but those were rare). Kievs were second choice. The main issue was very poor built and QC. Ergonomically most of them also suck. When the iron curtain went down we all run for “Western” stuff. Personally - I never regreted. Some RFs are really OK (e.g. early Kievs), but in general they vary so much in quality, that you never know what you get and how long it will last even after a CLA.

 

[Kai-san]

I agree with others here that FSU rangefinders from the 40's and 50's will function very well with a normal amount of servicing. My small collection of FSU rangefinders consist of a Leningrad, a KMZ Drug, a Mir, a Zorki 10 and a Zorki 1d on it's way from Russia.
If you want a reliable SLR from the DDR I can recommend an Ihagee Exakta, especially the Varex IIa.

 

[mpaniagua]

Interesting. I'm thinking about picking up a Zorki 6 because it apparently does not have the problem of having to change the shutter speed after cocking the shutter only. I'm not sure what other models can do this but maybe the Zorki 5 as well.

I almost bought a Zorki 6 but I stopped myself because of the bad reputation, and I didn't know much about this model.

As far as I know, all of them have this "feature". Almost all soviet rangefinder (as well as medium format like Kiev 88 and Kiev 60) are this way.

It is not as bad as you may think. Have had Fed, Fed 2, Kiev 4, Kiev 88C, Zorkii's and never had any issue with this. Probably I got in the habit of advancing film first early on the game, when I was young.

Marcelo