Argon protected developers.

retinax said:
If you paid attention in chemistry class, surely you can be more specific as to what you mean by "contamination" and how butane contamination is detrimental? What reaction takes place between photo chems and butane?
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Look at my last post, if that does not explain the issues quite frankly I wish I had not wasted my time trying to share this.
Another obvious home test would be, open a brand new jar or bottle of something not acidic, tip it a bit then re seal it and watch what happens over time.
When you see the state change, ask yourself why until you opened the container, have the contents GONE OFF !!!!!!!!!
 
I correct myself from a previous statement.......

Although argon is a noble gas, it can form some compounds under various extreme conditions.

......it is the extreme conditions that are the issue. Under normal average temperatures, Argon will not combine with anything. So when it is placed in between lighter gases and either a solid or a liquid , it will prevent any contamination or leeching between the other two.

Argon has several desirable properties:

Argon is a chemically inert gas.
Argon is the cheapest alternative when nitrogen is not sufficiently inert.
Argon has low thermal conductivity.
Argon has electronic properties (ionization and/or the emission spectrum) desirable for some applications.
Other noble gases would be equally suitable for most of these applications, but argon is by far the cheapest. Argon is inexpensive, since it occurs naturally in air and is readily obtained as a byproduct of cryogenic air separation in the production of liquid oxygen and liquid nitrogen: the primary constituents of air are used on a large industrial scale. The other noble gases (except helium) are produced this way as well, but argon is the most plentiful by far. The bulk of argon applications arise simply because it is inert and relatively cheap.

An inert gas is a gas that does not undergo chemical reactions under a set of given conditions. The noble gases often do not react with many substances[1] and were historically referred to as the inert gases. Inert gases are used generally to avoid unwanted chemical reactions degrading a sample. These undesirable chemical reactions are often oxidation and hydrolysis reactions with the oxygen and moisture in air.


No that should iron out this issue once and for all.
 
No not being dismissive about the value of inert gases such as N, Ar, Ne or Kr, just speculating whether it might be enough simply to displace oxygen with some fairly dense gas such as a hydrocarbon or fluorocarbon (Dust-Off et al), as those are cheap and readily available through sources like office supply stores. In other words, perhaps it's enough that the gas simply not react with our chemicals or the containers they're stored in.

For food-grade applications, sure I'd pay the premium for a can of wine preserver, but as sold, those canisters don't compress the gas into a liquid, hence by volume they are costly.
 
Larry Cloetta said:
I just guess at this point, but I think there are recommendations somewhere for how many seconds to spray into the container based on how wide the bottle is/the exposed surface area. I am doing about two to three seconds for Schott 1 liter bottles. Contractors use these to keep paint in paint cans from going bad, skinning over, and I have used it for that as well.
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Thanks Larry, I look at Argon's specs, and it is heavier than air. So it settles at the surface of the developer. Maybe we don't need to use very much, that is if it is efficacious.
 
Get a vessel with roughly the surface area as you want to protect. Give five squirts of this stuff into it. Light a taper and insert it down inside. At the point when the flame extinguishes, is where the inert gas has leveled off.
Stainless Steel, wine, milk tanks and some beer vats are all tig welded. Many welders have died inside these vessels because the Argon gas rose higher than their heads when they were welding repairs.
 
Helium

Helium

Never having gone to a welders supply store for argon, I can say that canisters of helium are available quite widely - Target and Costco come to mind as the canisters are used for balloon arrangements. Being a “noble” gas I assume that helium should work as well as argon for this purpose.
 
KenR said:
Never having gone to a welders supply store for argon, I can say that canisters of helium are available quite widely - Target and Costco come to mind as the canisters are used for balloon arrangements. Being a “noble” gas I assume that helium should work as well as argon for this purpose.
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DEFINITELY NOT.

On the Periodic Table Helium is number 2, Oxygen is number 8 and Argon is number 18.
Helium is lighter than Oxygen, so it would dissipate into the atmosphere, reason why it is used for Balloons. Argon at number 18 means it is more than twice as heavy as Oxygen, so it sinks below it.
Simply put it is the weight of Argon that gives the benefit, tied in with it being an inert gas.
 
Larry Cloetta said:
It’s very volatile, this topic.
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As noble and non-flammable as it is, you'd think it were digital vs. film. I spent $16 on marbles a few years ago, haven't lost them yet; they are safely and effectively displacing most of the air in my otherwise nearly-indestructible HC110 syrup and will continue to do so. When I have to start a new bottle, I'll pour out the amount I need then use the marbles from the old, used up container. I'm glad glass marbles aren't reactive, I'd hate for my HC110 to turn brown...

Phil Forrest
 
Phil_F_NM said:
As noble and non-flammable as it is, you'd think it were digital vs. film. I spent $16 on marbles a few years ago, haven't lost them yet; they are safely and effectively displacing most of the air in my otherwise nearly-indestructible HC110 syrup and will continue to do so. When I have to start a new bottle, I'll pour out the amount I need then use the marbles from the old, used up container. I'm glad glass marbles aren't reactive, I'd hate for my HC110 to turn brown...

Phil Forrest
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By whatever process it does or does not turn brown: https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169272&highlight=Freakscene+oxidation

Ha ha ha ahhh

Marty
 
Marbles seems like a good option. For XTOL I pour into 8 oz bottles, to the top. When I go to develoo, I grab 1 or 2 bottles (2 or 4 rolls), and add an equal amount of water. I never have any developer sitting around in a bottle with much air in it.
 
I give up with you people.
Marbles what a brilliant idea but what is in between the surface of the developer and the lid sealing the container, OXYGEN, NO MATTER HOW SMALL AN AREA, ITS OXYGEN.
I wish I had never started this topic, some people are obviously incapable of understanding the basics of chemistry. You do what you do and I will do what I do.
I became so frustrated earlier, I passed on this link to an engineering friend and a chemist relative. You people would not like their comments.
No wonder global warming is a dead idea, stupid is as stupid does as Forest said.
 
Don't take it so personally.
Yes there is oxygen sitting atop the developer but if you displace enough of it, you can keep the amount of surface area to a minimum, bringing the level of fluid all the way up to the neck of the bottle. And when it comes to HC110, it just doesn't seem to go bad when it is exposed to oxygen, so it doesn't matter at all. If you don't want your HC110 brown, then use argon or whatever other method of displacing oxygen you want to spend your money on, but don't disparage "us people" who don't do it your way and still get results which please us. I understand and know the chemistry; I've known that noble gases will help keep liquids from oxidizing, I just don't want to spend money on ameliorating something which I don't feel affects me. I'm sure a lot of us here feel similarly, we know it may make a small difference, but we haven't used it before and we simply don't care if the old way works.
Phil Forrest
 
jmpgino said:
I give up with you people.
Marbles what a brilliant idea but what is in between the surface of the developer and the lid sealing the container, OXYGEN, NO MATTER HOW SMALL AN AREA, ITS OXYGEN.
I wish I had never started this topic, some people are obviously incapable of understanding the basics of chemistry. You do what you do and I will do what I do.
I became so frustrated earlier, I passed on this link to an engineering friend and a chemist relative. You people would not like their comments.
No wonder global warming is a dead idea, stupid is as stupid does as Forest said.
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I have a Masters degree in organic chemistry and work as a scientist. I understand plenty. One thing we do is make custom molecular biology reagents, some of which require protection from aerial oxidation. Please show that what you are doing is making some difference to your end result and I’ll be interested.

Your photos are beautiful by the way.

Marty
 
At first I was amused, then I started telling myself to relax because Covid may have made us all more thin skinned, then I was reminded of a hypothesis by two individuals named Dunning and Kruger. What the heck, I need to vent, too.
Dear jmpgino, developer preservation is not quite the same as welding. We keep developers at much lower temperatures and they can tolerate some oxygen, we needn't deal in absolutes. As some have mentioned, many developers keep just fine in partially filled bottles. E.g. N2 or hydrocarbons like butane don't react in any significant way with developers as far as I (and Tetenal, as shawn has mentioned) know. No need for a real inert gas, we just need to displace O2, or most of it. But thanks for lecturing me on what hydrocarbons and inert gases are, without any consideration of the actual requirements of what this thread is about, and apparently without wasting a thought to the possibility that anyone but you could know anything.
 
I have a small cylinder of nitrogen I scored from Craigslist that i use for this. The seller salvaged it from film processing machines that he de-commissioned.
Before that I used the bloxygen. My main problem with bloxygen is that you can’t tell if the can has anything in it, and it’s pricey.
 
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