artist?

ptpdprinter said:
Commenting on images is problematic. APUG has two galleries, one where you can only say nice things, and one where you can critique. Hopefully it won't come to that here.
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Image comments are problematic because they require moderation to delete toxic, inauthentic criticism.

Years ago my feedback on Flickr was meaningless because people only said nice things. We can learn from positive comments. But we can learn from authentic criticism too. Authentic criticism is the same as saying nice things. Constructive criticism can be objective or subjective.

For example, when I was learning commercial interiors photography I read a comment about someones photo that stated, "No one will take you seriously if your photographs have converging verticals." For interiors photography, this is an important lesson. A counter example was, "The angle of view is way too wide in your composition. The viewers don't know what to look at or what's important about the space your trying to sell". This authentic criticism is somewhat subjective because some clients prefer photographs that make the space seem larger than it happens to be.

Toxic on-line comments do not constitute criticism. They are just a cowardly way to bully and project meanness.
 
Calzone said:
PKR,

I'm pretty close to retirement; I basically have a BA, MA, and MFA all in the arts; yet I have worked in research and been involved working in physics labs my whole life.

I worked at two National Labs: Los Alamos; and Brookhaven. One project was a Neutral Partical Beam weapon that was a prototype for a space based Star Wars project to shoot down ICBM's before they Vaporize us. The other project was a 2.7 mile circumference heavy ion collider.

My only technical background is a six month vocational school training in electronics, yet I had a patent, and was named "Inventor of the Year." Anyways problem solving, organizational skills, and creativity are innate skills that helped me more than any education. My ability to connect ideas, my abstract reasoning, my communication skills, and my ability to conceptualize more than made up for the lack of education in science.

William Carlos Williams the poet was a medical doctor who served a poor community. Gaugin the painter was a banker who abandoned his family. Marcel Duchamp was a French Chess Champion. Wes Montgomery worked in an automotive factory assembling cars. In some people their education and backgrounds are really separate.

Cal
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I don't think that kind of thing is a surprise to some of us. A pal of mine who has a degree in Geography (lots of math), works at LLNL as the principal prism designer on the big LASER project. And, T.S.Eliot was also a banker.
 
PKR said:
I don't think that kind of thing is a surprise to some of us. A pal of mine who has a degree in Geography (lots of math), works at LLNL as the principal prism designer on the big LASER project. And, T.S.Eliot was also a banker.
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PKR,

It does seem like many like us get misplaced. LOL.

I failed to mention that I also worked in a Fortune 500 company involved in doing research. I ended up working with mucho brilliant scientists and engineers, and I ended up getting an education one could not get in a grad school. It was fun playing with millions of dollars of equipment and working on stuff that had unlimited budgets.

Interesting how scientists and people with PhD's in math are in demand on Wall Street.

Alvin Toffer the science fiction writer wrote a profound book decades ago called "The Fourth Wave." He describes "Operation Desert Storm" as being the first war ever fought and won using information. Smart weapons, advanced communications were utilized to overwelm an enemy that had the opportunity to dig in and build fortifications.

Alvin Toffer described a future where it would be people that had the right combination of skills to deal with the technology, have the right kind of intelligence, to exploit modern complexity. Also controlling information was key to controlling power.

"The Fourth Wave" is now an old book, but over the decades it has proven to display a clear vision of the future.

Cal
 
Calzone said:
PKR,

It does seem like many like us get misplaced. LOL.

I failed to mention that I also worked in a Fortune 500 company involved in doing research. I ended up working with mucho brilliant scientists and engineers, and I ended up getting an education one could not get in a grad school. It was fun playing with millions of dollars of equipment and working on stuff that had unlimited budgets.

Interesting how scientists and people with PhD's in math are in demand on Wall Street.

Alvin Toffer the science fiction writer wrote a profound book decades ago called "The Fourth Wave." He describes "Operation Desert Storm" as being the first war ever fought and won using information. Smart weapons, advanced communications were utilized to overwelm an enemy that had the opportunity to dig in and build fortifications.

Alvin Toffer described a future where it would be people that had the right combination of skills to deal with the technology, have the right kind of intelligence, to exploit modern complexity. Also controlling information was key to controlling power.

"The Fourth Wave" is now an old book, but over the decades it has proven to display a clear vision of the future.

Cal
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I've read Toffer and have met a couple who are better than he is at predicting the future. They would never think of publishing.

My favorite line from the X Files is.. "We're in the business of predicting the future, and the best way to predict the future is to create it"
 
Cripes, it could have been complete control of the air over the country, and the fact that nobody really wanted to die for Saddam. You'd think with all these technocratic parasites Tofler likes so much, somebody could have figured out how to do something worth a damn, at least by accident.

:rolleyes:
 
Sure I'm an artist. I'm also a motorcyclist, a cook, a Land Rover mechanic, quite a good shot with a pistol or rifle...

I've been a teacher, a beach guard, a truck driver; I've written books on history, including a History of the 35mm Still Camera (Focal Press 1984). I have a regular weekly column that often touches on art criticism.

We are all many things. It's a bit odd to define yourself as just one of them. But Artist is a really weird one. Some people hate the idea of art in general; others are convinced that photography can't be an art; yet others have an enormous amount invested in their self-image as an Artist. How much does it matter? The more so if you call yourself an artist (or even an Artist) there are always those willing to snipe at you and say your work is no good, just because they don't like it (or can't understand it). So why upset them and yourself?

Cheers,

R.
 
I think Roger makes a good point.. it's about self image. I'm not my job! Or hobby, or any of that. Those things are I do.

I told jsrocket a while back that I don't even tell that people I'm a photographer outside of work situations. I don't want to be associated with some of the "camera people" locally.

When seen with a camera and asked (which is rare) I tell those asking that I'm just playing with a camera, or that it's just a hobby. I use a tripod a lot and it's old but looks expensive. I think that's the draw.

There are several art schools locally with many photo students. The digital camera revolution has quadrupled their numbers in the past few years. There are literally hundreds of these students out with their photo stuff, looking for targets to fulfill their assignments. They are all "Artists" and "Photographers".
 
PKR said:
There are several art schools locally with many photo students. The digital camera revolution has quadrupled their numbers in the past few years. There are literally hundreds of these students out with their photo stuff, looking for targets to fulfill their assignments. They are all "Artists" and "Photographers".
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Yes, and there are much more female photographers today, but unfortunately not on RFf.

Erik.
 
PKR said:
I think Roger makes a good point.. it's about self image. I'm not my job! Or hobby, or any of that. Those things are I do.

I told jsrocket a while back that I don't even tell that people I'm a photographer outside of work situations. I don't want to be associated with some of the "camera people" locally.

When seen with a camera and asked (which is rare) I tell those asking that I'm just playing with a camera, or that it's just a hobby. I use a tripod a lot and it's old but looks expensive. I think that's the draw.

There are several art schools locally with many photo students. The digital camera revolution has quadrupled their numbers in the past few years. There are literally hundreds of these students out with their photo stuff, looking for targets to fulfill their assignments. They are all "Artists" and "Photographers".
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Years ago, I lived in Brazil and in Portugal. I spoke both dialects of Portuguese and I sought to blend in as much as possible. I was generally appalled at the behavior of American tourists, so I kept my distance from them for the most part and I didn't tell people I was an American unless they asked me.

I'm still an American, though.

- Murray
 
willie_901 said:
Years ago my feedback on Flickr was meaningless because people only said nice things. We can learn from positive comments. But we can learn from authentic criticism too.
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I've done a number of photographic learning experiences.

Many have offered pleasant positive comments, then a suggested tweek here and there. This is especially true of the comments from fellow participants, but to some extent also by the program leaders.

The best dispense with the niceties, say positive and constructive things when they are important, are able to find important things to say. I like these a lot better.

I think it's hard to learn to give effective authentic helpful criticism.
 
CMur12 said:
Years ago, I lived in Brazil and in Portugal. I spoke both dialects of Portuguese and I sought to blend in as much as possible. I was generally appalled at the behavior of American tourists, so I kept my distance from them for the most part and I didn't tell people I was an American unless they asked me.

I'm still an American, though.

- Murray
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I had the same thing go on when working/visiting in Europe. People thought I was Swiss-French until I had to show my passport.

We share this thinking. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff these students do. It's photo-school combined with Facebook cubed. Anything to get attention and become "famous" as quickly as possible.
 
I have, for example, no problem calling Rembrandt’s work “art,” so I’m not appalled by the word. Moreover, to the extent that the word can be pretentiously used doesn’t mean that all of art’s semantical connotations or applications must be pretentious, lest we want to start glorifying the provincial.

But yes, there’s a sort of machismo cowering from the word; real men are too grounded, too scrutinizingly unsusceptible to be duped by marketing machinations. And in fairness, art is often extremely suspect and criminally ostentatious. But again, conflating these negative aspects to universal portions places considerable condemnation on everything deemed art. And while this might be one’s prerogative to make such sweeping criticisms, it’s ultimately foolish to demand everyone else share this same cynically protective myopia.

So “art” becomes contentious, even beyond the normal divergences that inherently arise from anything subjective.

However, given art’s fundamental focus on aesthetic, creativity, and expression, I would find it difficult to find any great photograph that did not at least incorporate some artistic elements, even if the photographer him- or herself despised the word art.

And I do believe that art appreciation and study can be instructive towards improving one’s photography irrespective of the intent of the photographer. Consequently, for people seriously engaged in a visual medium that extends beyond literal documentation, I would hesitate to be so dismissive about all aspects of art.

And to note, yes, I think that photography can be art. Of course!

But of course, do as one likes...no bodies are left burning on the streets because of this.
 
Darlings,
Perhaps our American friend's view provides facet additional...

"Art, or what we call that," he continues, "you can love it and appreciate it, but you can't really talk about it. Doesn't make any sense." - W. Eggleston

Ciao,
Mme O.
 
without-art.jpg
 
Erik van Straten said:
Yes, and there are much more female photographers today, but unfortunately not on RFf.

Erik.
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Among my and my wife's photographic friends there are many women.
Some are not very interested in gear talks, beside the basic controls of their cameras have a very limited knowledge.
But they have a "vision". An idea of what has to seen, read, understood or recalled by their images. Probably they are not "artist" but on the way to make some kind of "art"
robert
PS: just thinking, the basic controls are the ones we are used to when shooting film...
 
Erik van Straten said:
Dear Roger,

How can you have a column that is both "weekly" and "regular"?

Cheers,

Erik.
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Dear Erik,

A "regular" column could be daily, weekly, biweekly, monthly, quarterly....

A column in a weekly magazine might not appear every week: mine does, except in the Christmas/ New Year double issue, where there's just the one column in a two-week issue. It's always on the back page.

So I don't quite understand your question.

Cheers,

R.
 
Erik van Straten said:
Yes, and there are much more female photographers today, but unfortunately not on RFf.
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Dear Erik,

When I started the Final Analysis column, I wanted to make sure I used a fair number of female photographers precisely because there are so many more today. I soon found that I didn't have to try very hard. My last four columns were 50/50 male/female -- the ones I wrote, that is, which haven't been published yet. Because of a subscription cock-up, I missed several issues and only started getting the magazine again a couple of weeks ago, so there are a couple of months where I can't easily check what appeared when.

It's true that if you go back more than about 20-30 years there were far more male photographers, but as long ago as about 1990 Frances used to write a column in Shutterbug about women photographers: "Women in Photography". It wasn't every month but she used to do at least half a dozen a year. She got hate mail for it, too, from men who presumably felt threatened.

Cheers,

R.
 
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