Availability of M9 - 6 months later

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Turtle

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What do you think about the delays customers are still facing when ordering a M9?

I find it amazing that six months later you still have to wait months. I realise that some have managed to find them in stock, but it seems most still wait a couple of months or more.

Maybe this is due to demand. Maybe Leica is not responsive to change in production methods - I don't know, but surely this is not doing them any good at all. It just is not credible that for pro users they have to wait months for a body.... and then months more if they decide to buy a back up.

Will the M9 catalyse a change in Leica's production methods to reduce delays and increase value?

What do you think?
 
I think Leica doesnt know how many of these they will sell - after all it's way expansive and it is a small market. So, I would guess, thier thinking is - whoever few want this camera will wait no matter what - it's a lot cheaper than for the Leica to make a bunch and than not know what to do with them and/or have to sell them a lot cheaper just to get rid of them. Same as with exotic cars and similar items, I suppose.
 
Put yourself on the wait list. Most dealers have a no commitment wait list. Relax and save up(if needed) and wait for the good news from a dealer. The demand is greater than the supply... probably due to film M users finally accepting digital M9 as opposed to the M8/8.2.
 
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Krosya said:
I think Leica doesnt know how many of these they will sell - after all it's way expansive and it is a small market. So, I would guess, thier thinking is - whoever few want this camera will wait no matter what - it's a lot cheaper than for the Leica to make a bunch and than not know what to do with them and/or have to sell them a lot cheaper just to get rid of them. Same as with exotic cars and similar items, I suppose.
Click to expand...

Not really - it is just that it is impossible to produce more than 50 a day....
 
I spoke to my dealer yesterday (Leica dealer that is) and after the initial rush they met all their pre-orders early in the new year. But now they have a another strong waiting list of over 20 people, and there's another shortage of cameras!

I would think its like blimey says, its the second rush. Film users or M8 users have waited to see the reaction, and if the M9 is an overall gain, and now decided to jump. This is in addition to all the new folk who have been inspired to buy an M9.

Steve
 
The best way to reduce quality for an unknown period of time is to change the production method.

Have you ever bought a piece of furniture that is not some cheap IKEA stuff? You order, then it is produced and after 8-12 weeks you get it. Quality needs time :)
 
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I have seen them available every week or two for last couple of months or so. No gray for well over a month, however.
 
its interesting stuff - something that Leica has not experienced in a long time.

I don't agree that in theory Leica could not produce more for less, because thats economy of scale at work. I guess the issues is whether, despite the rush, the volume for bringing in such changes will ever be there.

I can imagine the second rush is catalysed by film shooters finally taking the plunge. I might be one of them, but thankfully do not need to rush. At this stage I am still not convinced I will get a M9 and I have been watching with curiosity to see whether/when leica would get on top of demand.

I would like to see Leica make their platform more mainstream for lots of reasons, but mainly for practical reasons. If you shoot a pair of Canon bodies and one gets stolen, you can buy a replacement immediately and still go do your shoot with your main and back up. With the M9 there seems to be a lot of fuss involved in the wait, the calibration of lenses etc. Combine these things and the odd cracked sensor, or pixel mapping issue, and it does not look desperately appealing.

It makes sense that changing production methods would ruin quality, but at what point would you have expected them to bring in and train more staff. maybe they are worried about doing so if demand then drops off.... but at this rate you will be on a waiting list if you place an order six months from now and thats got to be hurting Leica's sales. I am sure there are photographers out there (pros primarily) that think 'If I am going to wait, I might as well wait... and then the M10 will come along so I'll keep using my 5d II.'

I'll wait and then if I decide to buy, wait some more :) In the meantime, film is just fine because my current project is all B&W and film anyway. Its the next project, in colour, that I am thinking about...
 
Turtle said:
its interesting stuff - something that Leica has not experienced in a long time.

I don't agree that in theory Leica could not produce more for less, because thats economy of scale at work. I guess the issues is whether, despite the rush, the volume for bringing in such changes will ever be there.
of demand.
Click to expand...

Maybe you should visit the factory sometime and see how Leica are made. You would understand better why Leica does not even have interest in such a business model. And consider that it is a recipe for survival for some types of product - I believe Morgan and Bristol are the sole surviving independent British car makers - by following exactly the same model.

Leica is thinking Nibelheim - you are thinking Metropolis....;)
 
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Labor law in Germany prevents them from adding and subtracting workforce easily.

That has its good points like better job stability. In the USA, companies don`t want to hire, or they hire temps, or part time workers for low pay and without benefits.

Both places have rediculously high unemployment and underemployment, ie college grads
working meanial jobs, and people who have simply stopped looking and are not counted.

Funny thing this was caused by the US Government who told banks they MUST loan money, mortgages, to people who can`t not pay them back ( Community Reinvestment Act). The loans got more and more liberal from the Carter Administration to the present, the dicy mortgages got moved to Wall Street and they worked their magic peddling the junk, but found ways to to do it profitably for themselves to the detriment of society, short selling, credit default swaps, derivitives, and a bunch of other junk I don`t even understand. Then the public treasury was used to keep them from failing when the house of cards collapsed. But they get to keep all the profit and we as taxpayers absorb the losses. I want in on that business.

Unfortunately Leica needs to make money the plain old honest way, work for it. So they plod along through the swamp doing the best they can along with most all businesses.

They could ramp up production by going outside Germany & Europe. Would you buy a Chinese made Leica?
 
I think 50 a day is streaching it. I'm looking at monthly sales figures in EU and if I average those for the world 50 a day would be too much.
 
Waiting lists for luxury items are normal. Too expensive for the manufacturer and distributor to keep a big inventory, and it has positive impact on sales. Even this thread is good marketing for Leica.
 
But is Leica aiming to be a Bristol or Morgan. The life expectancy for such companies is not good and i would be surprised if Leica would like to remain in that sort of a niche. Sure, they are never going to be a Canon and never were, but while the luxury goods description was necessary during the demise of film for mainstream use, they had no choice due to the cost of developing digital products. Now that they have managed to get over that hillock, will their ambitions not change? I wonder if they will need to claw their way back into somewhat more credible mainstream usage to keep afloat in the long run.

I have not visited Leica but have heard the descriptions many time (and the video!), but just because they work that way now, does not mean that it need always be so. Are there not more efficient models possible with no compromise to output quality then there is greater volume? I assume so. It'll be interesting to see whether the M9 does herald any changes or whether the M9, however amazing sales seem to be compared to the M8, is still far too small to change the way Leica manufactures.

If true, German labor laws might explain the lack of additional workforce, if this is indeed the case.

I would readily buy a Chinogaulian Leica if the quality was the same. Why not?

On the price issue, I was really glad when Leica brought out the Summarits, but it has been disappointing to see their price disappear to double the cost of the ZM lens line. My favourite Leica lens is the 35 summarit... and its the cheapest!
 
I have heard some of the talk online about the duration of the wait, but it seems often from people on the waiting lists for major dealers. Just like "problems," the waiters are much more vocal online than those who received their cameras with very little wait at all.

There are lots of smaller Leica dealers with hardly any list at all. I have seen a few for sale even as slightly used. I would strongly bet that by calling around and getting on several lists one would have a camera within two weeks, if not much sooner.
 
Turtle said:
But is Leica aiming to be a Bristol or Morgan. The life expectancy for such companies is not good and i would be surprised if Leica would like to remain in that sort of a niche. Sure, they are never going to be a Canon and never were, but while the luxury goods description was necessary during the demise of film for mainstream use, they had no choice due to the cost of developing digital products. Now that they have managed to get over that hillock, will their ambitions not change? I wonder if they will need to claw their way back into somewhat more credible mainstream usage to keep afloat in the long run.

I have not visited Leica but have heard the descriptions many time (and the video!), but just because they work that way now, does not mean that it need always be so. Are there not more efficient models possible with no compromise to output quality then there is greater volume? I assume so. It'll be interesting to see whether the M9 does herald any changes or whether the M9, however amazing sales seem to be compared to the M8, is still far too small to change the way Leica manufactures. Leica seems to regard this whole way of thinking as one of the many regrettable Ämerican" aspects of Mr. Lee's tenure.

If true, German labor laws might explain the lack of additional workforce, if this is indeed the case.

I would readily buy a Chinogaulian Leica if the quality was the same. Why not?

On the price issue, I was really glad when Leica brought out the Summarits, but it has been disappointing to see their price disappear to double the cost of the ZM lens line. My favourite Leica lens is the 35 summarit... and its the cheapest!
Click to expand...
Well the life expectancy has turned out to be a lot better than British Leyland or Rover...No - Leica is and will remain a niche manufacturer. The problem with the Summarits was the very disappointing sales volume compared to the higher priced line. Leica set up a special assembly line for the Summarits, but it was never really in full operation due to lack of demand. They won't go that road again.
 
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Turtle said:
But is Leica aiming to be a Bristol or Morgan. The life expectancy for such companies is not good and i would be surprised if Leica would like to remain in that sort of a niche. Sure, they are never going to be a Canon and never were, but while the luxury goods description was necessary during the demise of film for mainstream use, they had no choice due to the cost of developing digital products. Now that they have managed to get over that hillock, will their ambitions not change? I wonder if they will need to claw their way back into somewhat more credible mainstream usage to keep afloat in the long run.

I have not visited Leica but have heard the descriptions many time (and the video!), but just because they work that way now, does not mean that it need always be so. Are there not more efficient models possible with no compromise to output quality then there is greater volume? I assume so. It'll be interesting to see whether the M9 does herald any changes or whether the M9, however amazing sales seem to be compared to the M8, is still far too small to change the way Leica manufactures.

If true, German labor laws might explain the lack of additional workforce, if this is indeed the case.

I would readily buy a Chinogaulian Leica if the quality was the same. Why not?

On the price issue, I was really glad when Leica brought out the Summarits, but it has been disappointing to see their price disappear to double the cost of the ZM lens line. My favourite Leica lens is the 35 summarit... and its the cheapest!
Click to expand...
Well the life expectancy has turned out to be a lot better than British Leyland or Rover...No - Leica is and will remain a niche manufacturer. The problem with the Summarits was the very disappointing sales volume compared to the higher priced line. Leica set up a special assembly line for the Summarits, but it was never really in full operation due to lack of demand. They won't go that road again Leica seems to regard this whole way of thinking as one of the many regrettable "American" aspects of Mr. Lee's tenure.
 
Ronald M said:
They could ramp up production by going outside Germany & Europe. Would you buy a Chinese made Leica?
Click to expand...

From what I remember from the Leica Factory Tour Video, 90% of the camera is pre-assembled into components from Portugal (?), and only final assembly and calibration is done in Germany. It is possible that the PCBs, electronic components, etc. already originate from China.

Given the proper QC, I don't see why it matters where any "Leica" is made. So yes, I guess I might just buy a "Chinese made Leica" if it existed.
 
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