sepiareverb
genius and moron
Two pages already and no lockdown??
I like B&H. They have the best customer service of any company anywhere near their size, sell what I need at excellent prices and don't play any games with those prices or pretending that things are in stock like others. It's a private company, let them hire who they want. I can't quite picture the same uproar about some nail salon in the same neighborhood being sued because no guys work there.
I like B&H. They have the best customer service of any company anywhere near their size, sell what I need at excellent prices and don't play any games with those prices or pretending that things are in stock like others. It's a private company, let them hire who they want. I can't quite picture the same uproar about some nail salon in the same neighborhood being sued because no guys work there.
nikku
Well-known
Oh no, I was just looking down on you from my ivory tower. (that was a joke).
Al Kaplan
Veteran
Anybody who thinks that the Orthodox Jewish sideburn hair is strange should come to the Miami area and see some of the Jamaican men with their waist length (or longer) dreadlocks. These might be worn straight, gathered into a ponytail, or coiled up inside a knit cap. It's not unusual to see well dressed guys in suit and tie working in offices, banks, where ever with that Rastafarian hair style and everybody just accepts it.
back alley
IMAGES
are you saying that this thread should be locked down?
wgerrard
Veteran
Private companies must obey the law, just as private people must. They can hire who they want but they can't use gender as a qualifier. That right doesn't exist.
kbg32
neo-romanticist
nikku
Well-known
nikku
Well-known
That's actually a really good point, I think sometimes people use "faceless" corporations as a proxy for their dislike of a certain group or groups of people. Someone mentioned Wal Mart in this thread earlier, and Wal Mart is a prime example. It has become cultural shorthand for rednecks, southerners, and poor people in general, and many people use Wal Mart as an object lesson in "what is wrong with America" or as the butt of a joke.
Good observation.
robklurfield
eclipse
Joe, I hope you don't close the thread. However, everyone needs to be a little more thoughtful, respectful and slower to react. Consider your words before you hit the Post Reply button. Words are like toothpaste: they're very hard to get back into the tube.
On the topic of B&H, anything is possible. I am a non-practicing, non-observant, non-believing Jew who once worked for a company comprised of staff and ownership all of whom were Orthodox (well, there was at least one guy who was faking the Orthodox part to fit in better, but he was Jewish); most everyone was Hasidic. I know that no harm was intended by the two things that I'll tell you about them, but it doesn't make what they did correct. They acted out of strong beliefs and not a little bit of stubborn ignorance (I liked the people I worked for, but that doesn't make everything they did correct or agreeable; they meant well, but they were still wrong).
First, the owner of the company (who happens to be a friend and neighbor of B&H's owner) said to me on a Friday at 11:00am in the summertime, "we're all leaving now, but you can stay until 6:00pm to close up." When I reminded him that I too am Jewish, he said, "no, not like us, you're not." I pointed out the silliness of his statement in detail (from a religious and a legal perspective). The summertime season made this especially ridiculous given that Jewish law says the observant Jew needs to be not working, traveling, etc. by sundown on the Sabbath (even their meals for the Sabbath need to be prepared in advance of sundown). Even my few co-workers who traveled to the country for Sabbath had commutes of less than two hours. So, I politely pointed out that if we all left at 1:00pm everyone could get a little more work done and still be home in plenty of time to meet our family, religious and other obligations. My boss didn't get this and I lost the argument.
Another time, when trying to justify giving everyone in the company except for me two weeks of paid days off for a single holiday, he said, "you know we all celebrate in different ways;" his way of telling me, "we'll be celebrating while you are working." Fortunately, in that second instance, our CFO talked the CEO out of this and I got the same deal as everyone else.
Several years after I left, the company had grown so much that it moved to new, bigger location, taking over an large, old building. In renovating their enormous new space, they created a segregated work area for unmarried Jewish young women staff so they would not have to spend their work days in the presence of men. Those women perform a job function that no men in the company do. Is this discriminatory? Their workforce probably doesn't think so, as the staff continues to comprise almost entirely Orthodox Jewish people who agree with the policy. Would someone from outside their culture and religion be bothered by this? Some people certainly would be and might even take legal action.
Bottom line here, groups are made up of people. Individual people and sometimes the groups with which they identify themselves (whether the identity is "Jewish retailer" or "Irish Catholic NY Yankees fan" or "Hindu cricket player") have foibles, quirks, biases, prejudices, etc. Sometimes we humans behave foolishly or unfairly. Could this have happened at B&H? Sure, why not? The company IS run by humans. Could the plaintiff be filing a frivolous lawsuit? Maybe. Is it possible that B&H discriminated? Sure. Does that make them bad people? No, just ignorant and wrong on this topic. Sometimes, when you gather a group of people together who have a strong common identity, they behave worse than they would when acting as individuals because that group identity drives group-think (ie, "this is a good group, therefore anyone not a part of it is somehow suspect"). Would a Boston Red Sox fan discriminate against a New York Yankees fan? Of course it could happen -- well, it happens all the time. Religious and cultural beliefs can certainly inflame as much passion and sometimes as much bad behavior as baseball fandom.
BTW, I liked these folks I worked for and with enough that I considered an offer to return to their employ once when they pursued me to come back.
I have shopped at B&H and will probably shop there again.
In management meetings at my old company, the conversation would occasionally drift from English to almost entirely Yiddish, especially if the topic became heated. I would sometimes have to remind my colleagues that my knowledge of Yiddish consists of about 30 or 40 words never used in complete sentences. This became hilarious when once we were hosting an IT vendor's team for a meeting in our conference room. None of the vendor participants were Jewish and yet half my colleagues suddenly burst into Yiddish and needed to be reminded repeatedly to treat our guests with better manners. Many of my colleagues in that company were young and had spent their entire lives sheltered in their own rather insulated communities with little exposure to the rest of the world of NYC. Some of these folks, nearly all of them men, have grown up quite a bit and experienced a broader world and know better now how to behave amongst a diverse population.
On the topic of B&H, anything is possible. I am a non-practicing, non-observant, non-believing Jew who once worked for a company comprised of staff and ownership all of whom were Orthodox (well, there was at least one guy who was faking the Orthodox part to fit in better, but he was Jewish); most everyone was Hasidic. I know that no harm was intended by the two things that I'll tell you about them, but it doesn't make what they did correct. They acted out of strong beliefs and not a little bit of stubborn ignorance (I liked the people I worked for, but that doesn't make everything they did correct or agreeable; they meant well, but they were still wrong).
First, the owner of the company (who happens to be a friend and neighbor of B&H's owner) said to me on a Friday at 11:00am in the summertime, "we're all leaving now, but you can stay until 6:00pm to close up." When I reminded him that I too am Jewish, he said, "no, not like us, you're not." I pointed out the silliness of his statement in detail (from a religious and a legal perspective). The summertime season made this especially ridiculous given that Jewish law says the observant Jew needs to be not working, traveling, etc. by sundown on the Sabbath (even their meals for the Sabbath need to be prepared in advance of sundown). Even my few co-workers who traveled to the country for Sabbath had commutes of less than two hours. So, I politely pointed out that if we all left at 1:00pm everyone could get a little more work done and still be home in plenty of time to meet our family, religious and other obligations. My boss didn't get this and I lost the argument.
Another time, when trying to justify giving everyone in the company except for me two weeks of paid days off for a single holiday, he said, "you know we all celebrate in different ways;" his way of telling me, "we'll be celebrating while you are working." Fortunately, in that second instance, our CFO talked the CEO out of this and I got the same deal as everyone else.
Several years after I left, the company had grown so much that it moved to new, bigger location, taking over an large, old building. In renovating their enormous new space, they created a segregated work area for unmarried Jewish young women staff so they would not have to spend their work days in the presence of men. Those women perform a job function that no men in the company do. Is this discriminatory? Their workforce probably doesn't think so, as the staff continues to comprise almost entirely Orthodox Jewish people who agree with the policy. Would someone from outside their culture and religion be bothered by this? Some people certainly would be and might even take legal action.
Bottom line here, groups are made up of people. Individual people and sometimes the groups with which they identify themselves (whether the identity is "Jewish retailer" or "Irish Catholic NY Yankees fan" or "Hindu cricket player") have foibles, quirks, biases, prejudices, etc. Sometimes we humans behave foolishly or unfairly. Could this have happened at B&H? Sure, why not? The company IS run by humans. Could the plaintiff be filing a frivolous lawsuit? Maybe. Is it possible that B&H discriminated? Sure. Does that make them bad people? No, just ignorant and wrong on this topic. Sometimes, when you gather a group of people together who have a strong common identity, they behave worse than they would when acting as individuals because that group identity drives group-think (ie, "this is a good group, therefore anyone not a part of it is somehow suspect"). Would a Boston Red Sox fan discriminate against a New York Yankees fan? Of course it could happen -- well, it happens all the time. Religious and cultural beliefs can certainly inflame as much passion and sometimes as much bad behavior as baseball fandom.
BTW, I liked these folks I worked for and with enough that I considered an offer to return to their employ once when they pursued me to come back.
I have shopped at B&H and will probably shop there again.
In management meetings at my old company, the conversation would occasionally drift from English to almost entirely Yiddish, especially if the topic became heated. I would sometimes have to remind my colleagues that my knowledge of Yiddish consists of about 30 or 40 words never used in complete sentences. This became hilarious when once we were hosting an IT vendor's team for a meeting in our conference room. None of the vendor participants were Jewish and yet half my colleagues suddenly burst into Yiddish and needed to be reminded repeatedly to treat our guests with better manners. Many of my colleagues in that company were young and had spent their entire lives sheltered in their own rather insulated communities with little exposure to the rest of the world of NYC. Some of these folks, nearly all of them men, have grown up quite a bit and experienced a broader world and know better now how to behave amongst a diverse population.
wgerrard
Veteran
Great post, Rob. Thanks for giving me the chance to read it.
retnull
Well-known
I vote delete this thread. This is not the RFF I like.
mac_wt
Cameras are like bunnies
I guess this is one of those threads I usually only learn about when someone asks why it was deleted... I'm happy I saw a live one. Very interesting.
Al Kaplan
Veteran
These problems arise whenever some critical mass of an immigrant group moves into an area. My ex is from Germany and here in Miami it's not unusual to be greeted in Spanish at many businesses. She just starts replying in German until they say something in English.
The joke is that Miami is the only major city on the planet where the majority of the population isn't at least conversant in English.
The joke is that Miami is the only major city on the planet where the majority of the population isn't at least conversant in English.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
In Santa Fe, Spanish is the language spoken in the streets and in businesses by most people. Most of the Spanish speakers are American-born Hispanics though, so they can speak English. They prefer Spanish, though many of them criticize Immigrants from Mexico for not knowing how to speak english! I laugh because that complaint about Mexicans not speaking English comes most often from Hispanics, not Anglos.
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
I don't think three's anything in Jewish law that forbids letting machines do the work on the sabbath. For instance, you are not supposed to operate a light switch on the sabbath. But an automatic timer is legal. So I have wondered why they don't take orders on the sabbath, even over the internet. As long as a computer handles it, it should be OK. Just my 2 cents!
nikku
Well-known
Very insightful Rob, thanks for that.
ampguy
Veteran
more good points
more good points
So I read that one of the first US secret operatives was based in China, until they are on the verge of getting taken over, so he ends up walking for months, maybe years, to Tibet. He survives cold winters, wild animals and all.
Then when he gets to Tibet, he gets shot dead?? Anyone know if this is true?
Once, I flipped the TV on, and Just before I changed channels to PBS, there was this model reality show on, and one of the participants says "I don't know much about Tibet, but I think they should all be freed" ??!!
more good points
So I read that one of the first US secret operatives was based in China, until they are on the verge of getting taken over, so he ends up walking for months, maybe years, to Tibet. He survives cold winters, wild animals and all.
Then when he gets to Tibet, he gets shot dead?? Anyone know if this is true?
Once, I flipped the TV on, and Just before I changed channels to PBS, there was this model reality show on, and one of the participants says "I don't know much about Tibet, but I think they should all be freed" ??!!
robklurfield
eclipse
In some buildings in NYC they have installed some gizmo that allows an elevator to run without the occupant having to press a button on Sabbath because some of these folks live in high rises that would require them to walk many, many flights of stairs. You can have a machine do work, but you can't have anything to do with operating it. No oven or toaster, so they have to finish all their Sabbath meal cooking before sundown, hence those extra hours needed to get home (although, I know the culprit who I was picking on here never, ever helped his wife prepare a meal). There is a very vigorous intellectual debate anytime an issue like this comes up, with Talmudic scholars and lay pundits expressing well-reasoned legalistic interpretations of what fits Jewish law and what doesn't. The elevator one was reported in the NYT a few months ago.
In NYC several years ago, the modesty issue with women's hair being covered by wigs reached a fever pitch when it was discovered that hair being used to make some of the wigs had come from some controversial source. There was extraordinarily heated and angry debate about just who exactly would need to throw away and replace her wig and who could be assured that her's was okay because it came from a proper source. Some of the wigs cost as much as $5,000 (I know, I know, some of us are thinking that's a Noctilux or a couple of MP bodies).
Watching a roomful of young Hasidic men argue over some interpretation of the Talmud that affects whether they can buy milk from a certain merchant and whose rabbi can be trusted to give the right answer on this question, can give one a sense that the stereotype of Jewish people making good lawyers might have a basis (however, limited and perhaps misguided) in reality. If you define all the choices and behaviors of your life by a set of written laws that you have to spend your life learning and interpreting, of course you'd have developed a mind that might also be suited to learning civil law, too. Stereotypes can be offensive, stupid, unfair, reductive, hateful, etc. They can also, sometimes, have a basis in truth. If some Jewish people have risen up to great heights in the law, it might have a little to do with coming from a tradition of having to study and debate whether or not you can take an elevator in your apartment building on the Sabbath, something I've never had to debate or consider.
One neat thing about how all this law gets applied is the broad number of exceptions that get made to it to accommodate protecting people's lives and safety. Can't walk because you need a wheelchair? You get a free pass for that elevator. Saving a life because you're an EMT? You can work on Sabbath.
Regarding making me work on Sabbath, officially that should have been a no-no. You're not supposed to be profiting from the labor of others on those days that you yourself are not supposed to be working. One of my colleagues pointed this out to me, saying, "the boss is wrong on this one." In fact, you're not supposed to be making money on those days, period. That is the reason that B&H doesn't staff up with non-Jews on Sabbath to keep the website's e-Commerce shopping carts running. Ever notice, you always get a message that the shopping carts are closed.
from their website:
Welcome to B&H Photo!
We are temporarily not accepting orders.
Online ordering will resume at Saturday 6:00 PM EST.
By the way, my former boss was right; I'm not "that Jewish." I learned how little I knew by spending time among the ultra faithful. Rather a foreign country to me in many ways.
In NYC several years ago, the modesty issue with women's hair being covered by wigs reached a fever pitch when it was discovered that hair being used to make some of the wigs had come from some controversial source. There was extraordinarily heated and angry debate about just who exactly would need to throw away and replace her wig and who could be assured that her's was okay because it came from a proper source. Some of the wigs cost as much as $5,000 (I know, I know, some of us are thinking that's a Noctilux or a couple of MP bodies).
Watching a roomful of young Hasidic men argue over some interpretation of the Talmud that affects whether they can buy milk from a certain merchant and whose rabbi can be trusted to give the right answer on this question, can give one a sense that the stereotype of Jewish people making good lawyers might have a basis (however, limited and perhaps misguided) in reality. If you define all the choices and behaviors of your life by a set of written laws that you have to spend your life learning and interpreting, of course you'd have developed a mind that might also be suited to learning civil law, too. Stereotypes can be offensive, stupid, unfair, reductive, hateful, etc. They can also, sometimes, have a basis in truth. If some Jewish people have risen up to great heights in the law, it might have a little to do with coming from a tradition of having to study and debate whether or not you can take an elevator in your apartment building on the Sabbath, something I've never had to debate or consider.
One neat thing about how all this law gets applied is the broad number of exceptions that get made to it to accommodate protecting people's lives and safety. Can't walk because you need a wheelchair? You get a free pass for that elevator. Saving a life because you're an EMT? You can work on Sabbath.
Regarding making me work on Sabbath, officially that should have been a no-no. You're not supposed to be profiting from the labor of others on those days that you yourself are not supposed to be working. One of my colleagues pointed this out to me, saying, "the boss is wrong on this one." In fact, you're not supposed to be making money on those days, period. That is the reason that B&H doesn't staff up with non-Jews on Sabbath to keep the website's e-Commerce shopping carts running. Ever notice, you always get a message that the shopping carts are closed.
from their website:
Welcome to B&H Photo!
We are temporarily not accepting orders.
Online ordering will resume at Saturday 6:00 PM EST.
By the way, my former boss was right; I'm not "that Jewish." I learned how little I knew by spending time among the ultra faithful. Rather a foreign country to me in many ways.
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gb hill
Veteran
I didn't say anything derogatory against any ethnic group. I was just stating not to say anything against anyone because...well you see how those jumps to conclusions. I don't care who owns B&H Camera I'm not supporting any business that practice discrimination against others.
gb hill
Veteran
Glad you got that off your chest & you feel better now. The only reason I brought it up was because everyone knows B&H is owned by orthodox jews & the comments could become quite sensitive. I've found folks here can't read through a post & know someone is joking around. Sorry if you or anyone else missed my point. Thats the problem with forums & why I don't take anyone serious here. Too many of you need a life! Get out more & shoot some film or something. Sorry I brought it up & your so offendedI once called (insert name of person from NC here) a "Goober" and just wanted to remind everyone of that. That is a stereotype that may or may not be accurate.
Geezzz!! BTW Akiva is a friend on flickr & I guarentee none of you have as many positive comments on his photo's as I have.