Bill Pierce
Well-known
I’m fairly typical in being someone whose professional film work was 99 percent color and whose personal work was 99 percent black-and-white. Now of course, in the digital age, the great majority of consumer cameras produce color files that have the option of being quickly and easily converted into black-and-white files. Basic programs like Photoshop, Lightroom, Capture One, RPP, Silkypix and DXO offer conversion settings. There are also specialized programs like DXO Filmpack and Silver Efex Pro that can work within programs like Lightroom and offer more avenues of control.
I’ve used them all. When I want to make a really good black-and-white image from a color raw file, even after a long time shooting digitally, I may still run a file through several programs to see which does it “best.” If this thread lasts a little while, I’ll tell you which conversion process is becoming the one I like the most and, more important, why. But, for now, I would like to hear your thoughts on converting digital color to black-and-white, how you do it and why you do it that way before I go into some egocentric “this is the way to do it.” I think this is probably something a lot of us are interested in.
I’ve used them all. When I want to make a really good black-and-white image from a color raw file, even after a long time shooting digitally, I may still run a file through several programs to see which does it “best.” If this thread lasts a little while, I’ll tell you which conversion process is becoming the one I like the most and, more important, why. But, for now, I would like to hear your thoughts on converting digital color to black-and-white, how you do it and why you do it that way before I go into some egocentric “this is the way to do it.” I think this is probably something a lot of us are interested in.
burancap
Veteran
I am certainly interested as I have come to the conclusion after much trial and error that ... digital files converted to B&W is where I want to go with my hobby.
In fact, just this past weekend I downloaded both LR4 and Silver Efex demos to give them a try. I am looking forward to this thread!
In fact, just this past weekend I downloaded both LR4 and Silver Efex demos to give them a try. I am looking forward to this thread!
Red Rock Bill
Well-known
I'll be looking forward to following this thread,I'm not having the easiest time with the conversion process. Thanks,Bill
jippiejee
Well-known
Two years ago I started with photoshop conversions, but now it's all Lightroom 4 and Silver Efex Pro2. I'm very happy with the intuitiveness of this combination, but will be interested to see other's takes on it indeed.
vrgard
Well-known
Wish I had enough experience to add to this discussion. But since I don't, like others, I look forward to learning from whatever gets shared in this thread.
Thanks,
Randy
Thanks,
Randy
burancap
Veteran
That is about where I was and am ... I see that you have an M8 -that is about where I started with the process. I was shooting RAW and converting in PS or even PSe. Upon selling my M8 and flirting with some other gear, I had the good fortune to attend a regional RFF meet. Some of my favorite shots from that weekend were not film ... I found that converted B&W was what I was looking for and that I needed a complete direction change. By all accounts, Silver Efex seemed to be the tool of choice and I decided that was where I was going to focus my energy.
While news for another thread, I have started to pare down my gear. I bought a pair of Sigma DP's and a laptop capable of handling their potentially massive pseudo-RAW files. I have had some teething issues with the proprietary Sigma files and converting them and that is about where I am now. I actually jumped back to the wintel platform for the raw HP/$ ratio and as mentioned have downloaded both the LR4 and SE. My intent (still in its infancy) is to develop an entire new workflow from start to finish. So, for me -a line was drawn in the sand about two weeks ago.
I have been pleased (not something typical for me and my photography) with the early results. One thing I am struggling with is the re-introduction of grain or perhaps a "grittiness" to the files. They almost have a sterility to them otherwise. But, I am not sure that that is not just what they are -and that I am struggling to make them look like what I am used to on film! Some of the SE filters are just a bit over the top to me. I need to find "THAT" balance.
My question(s) to myself now are: Why can't they stand on their own? Do they HAVE to look like film? Is that somehow faking it? How far do you take it before they really aren't what you shot? All tough questions.
hausen
Well-known
I am a LR4 and Silver Effex II guy as well. I am also quite impressed with the Jpg algorithm for B&W straight from the M9. Read Thorsten's blog about the M9 Jpgs and gave it a try and was really quite impressed.
Richard G
Veteran
I have been clicking the B and W button top right in LR 4 and then work my way down, sometimes increasing exposure, often pulling up shadow detail, dropping blacks back down a little and raising Clarity a bit only. The only default is LR's 25% input sharpening. Invariably I'll push Luminance up a bit to smooth the noise. I only add grain if the shot seems to need that unifying touch, and then I'll add a lot. Otherwise i like the idea of embracing digital black and white. Every shot needs some slight variation on the approach. Having only just allowed myself to be more liberal with cropping, I have wanted to try my hand without yet leaning on SE Pro which I haven't tried.
kshapero
South Florida Man
DXO Filmpack has fooled me so many times that I now consider as good as film. Wow, did I just say that?
sevres_babylone
Veteran
I use photoshop (currently CS5) and Silver Efex Pro. I like Silver Efex Pro for a number of reasons.
I am definitely not a master of selections in Photoshop; for that reason, I am especially appreciate of SEP's u-point technology to do for me what other people can achieve with selections, in order to make localized corrections.
I also like the fact that SEP's pre-sets are starting points. I also like the fact that SEP doesn't hide what the pre-sets are doing in terms of "grain", curves, and colour adjustments (like colour filters, but not exactly). I can then make adjustments to my likely. For example, I might want a "grainy" look, but find that the pre-set simulations for fast film block up my shadows; therefore, I might start with the pre-set for a slow film, that gives me the curve I want, and then add "grain"/noise afterwards.
I don't always start with pre-sets, in any event.
Also, in some instances, and more frequently than in the past, I will increase saturation, or change colours, in colour file, before conversion, because I am getting a better sense of how SEP handles these things.
I should also add that I shoot raw+jpeg, and sometimes find that the black and white jpeg is just fine, or close enough to fine, that I can simply tweak it in Photoshop.
(cameras used: R-D1, GRD3, and M9)
I am definitely not a master of selections in Photoshop; for that reason, I am especially appreciate of SEP's u-point technology to do for me what other people can achieve with selections, in order to make localized corrections.
I also like the fact that SEP's pre-sets are starting points. I also like the fact that SEP doesn't hide what the pre-sets are doing in terms of "grain", curves, and colour adjustments (like colour filters, but not exactly). I can then make adjustments to my likely. For example, I might want a "grainy" look, but find that the pre-set simulations for fast film block up my shadows; therefore, I might start with the pre-set for a slow film, that gives me the curve I want, and then add "grain"/noise afterwards.
I don't always start with pre-sets, in any event.
Also, in some instances, and more frequently than in the past, I will increase saturation, or change colours, in colour file, before conversion, because I am getting a better sense of how SEP handles these things.
I should also add that I shoot raw+jpeg, and sometimes find that the black and white jpeg is just fine, or close enough to fine, that I can simply tweak it in Photoshop.
(cameras used: R-D1, GRD3, and M9)
venchka
Veteran
My method, still in it's infancy:
Start with RAW files into Lightroom 3.6.
Adjust for a pleasing color photo.
Select Lightroom's "Edit in CS4" command.
Open a Lightroom rendered copy in CS4.
Work through a list of B&W conversions which I purchased from TLR.
Select the action that I feel works best for the image at hand.
Apply Platinum toning occasionally. Also from TLR.
Flatten, save & close the resulting TIFF file.
Exit PS4 to Lightroom.
Apply any final tweaks, usually not needed, in Lightroom.
Print.
Export for my L.U.G. Gallery.
I forgot why: I'm too cheap to buy software.
I look forward to Bill's methods.
Wayne
Start with RAW files into Lightroom 3.6.
Adjust for a pleasing color photo.
Select Lightroom's "Edit in CS4" command.
Open a Lightroom rendered copy in CS4.
Work through a list of B&W conversions which I purchased from TLR.
Select the action that I feel works best for the image at hand.
Apply Platinum toning occasionally. Also from TLR.
Flatten, save & close the resulting TIFF file.
Exit PS4 to Lightroom.
Apply any final tweaks, usually not needed, in Lightroom.
Print.
Export for my L.U.G. Gallery.
I forgot why: I'm too cheap to buy software.
I look forward to Bill's methods.
Wayne
jippiejee
Well-known
Sometimes it's easier to translate questions to another medium. While you could draw a perfect black line with your mouse in MSPaint, you'll always remember the beauty of the line you drew on paper with charcoal. Digital photography is too often like MS Paint and if you have no desire to go back to real paper, it's not so bad if a plugin adds some of that soul to a photo. It's fake. But at times fake is just more real.
venchka
Veteran
Personally, I take the B&W digital conversions exactly as they are.
If I want grit, I load Bigfoot with p3200 and go forth into the night.
That's all the personal stuff this thread needs. In my personal opinion.
Wayne
If I want grit, I load Bigfoot with p3200 and go forth into the night.
That's all the personal stuff this thread needs. In my personal opinion.
Wayne
daveleo
what?
As a photo hobbyist and unix / linux user, I use the GIMP to edit my photos.
I don't generally do major picture surgery, but very often convert color digital jpg's to grayscale, using the GIMP.
Actually, that is a very exciting part of making images, for me.
My practice is to get the color image a bit punchy in the colors (to separate the layers that will come in a moment). Then decompose to R-G-B layers, and twiddle with the opacity and other properties of each layer, then flatten the image.
A while back, I added a page to my photo website that walks through this process:
http://www.cafephotos.net/Grayscale/Grayscale.html
I don't generally do major picture surgery, but very often convert color digital jpg's to grayscale, using the GIMP.
Actually, that is a very exciting part of making images, for me.
My practice is to get the color image a bit punchy in the colors (to separate the layers that will come in a moment). Then decompose to R-G-B layers, and twiddle with the opacity and other properties of each layer, then flatten the image.
A while back, I added a page to my photo website that walks through this process:
http://www.cafephotos.net/Grayscale/Grayscale.html
KEH
Well-known
For Lightroom only, the latest X=Equals presets are very useful. You can separate color sensitivity from contrast from grain, which can be useful.
For prints I try to produce a low contrast Lightroom file, including local adjustments and graduated filters, then use Silver Efex 2 in Photoshop. I generally experiment with dynamic contrast and brightness in SEP2, but if I can't get the look I want I will go to the standard BW tool in Photoshop, adjust color sensitivity to taste, then work on tonality.
My (not terribly helpful) conclusion is that each print requires a lot experimentation in order to get the look I want.
Cheers,
Kirk
For prints I try to produce a low contrast Lightroom file, including local adjustments and graduated filters, then use Silver Efex 2 in Photoshop. I generally experiment with dynamic contrast and brightness in SEP2, but if I can't get the look I want I will go to the standard BW tool in Photoshop, adjust color sensitivity to taste, then work on tonality.
My (not terribly helpful) conclusion is that each print requires a lot experimentation in order to get the look I want.
Cheers,
Kirk
Peter Klein
Well-known
Old method:
- Get the white balance aproximately right in Capture One Pro.
- Generate a 16-bit TIFF color file
- Open the color TIFF file in Picture Window Pro
- Use Transformation-Color-Monochrome (similar to Photoshop's Channel Mixer, but easier to use) to adjust the proportions of RGB. I have a starting "recipe," but reserve the right to use any, all or none of the three channels, depending on the subject.
- Save to a B&W 16-bit TIFF.
- Levels and/or Curves adjustment.
- Local contrast adjustment, sometimes.
- Dodge and burn with Lighten and Darken tool as needed.
- Local sharpening with a mask, and/or overall sharpening.
For all steps above, when in doubt, underdo the adjustments rather than overdoing. Or create two versions, and then I know a day or two later where I want the final result to fall in between the two extremes.
New method: Do the color filtration with the equivalent tools in Capture One, now that it has B&W color proportion editing built in. The Clarity control can stand in for "local contrast" adjustment. But if I'm really serious about the picture or am going to print it, I still want to use Picture Window Pro for much of the workflow, as I prefer the PWP's tools. The more I'm going to adjust the picture, the more likely it is I'll end up in PWP.
- Get the white balance aproximately right in Capture One Pro.
- Generate a 16-bit TIFF color file
- Open the color TIFF file in Picture Window Pro
- Use Transformation-Color-Monochrome (similar to Photoshop's Channel Mixer, but easier to use) to adjust the proportions of RGB. I have a starting "recipe," but reserve the right to use any, all or none of the three channels, depending on the subject.
- Save to a B&W 16-bit TIFF.
- Levels and/or Curves adjustment.
- Local contrast adjustment, sometimes.
- Dodge and burn with Lighten and Darken tool as needed.
- Local sharpening with a mask, and/or overall sharpening.
For all steps above, when in doubt, underdo the adjustments rather than overdoing. Or create two versions, and then I know a day or two later where I want the final result to fall in between the two extremes.
New method: Do the color filtration with the equivalent tools in Capture One, now that it has B&W color proportion editing built in. The Clarity control can stand in for "local contrast" adjustment. But if I'm really serious about the picture or am going to print it, I still want to use Picture Window Pro for much of the workflow, as I prefer the PWP's tools. The more I'm going to adjust the picture, the more likely it is I'll end up in PWP.
fstops
-
The first help to getting decent B&W is doing your initial selection in B&W. The only software that allows you to do this without a batch conversion is Picasa, otherwise do a batch conversion of all the RAW files into b&w jpgs using your favorite software in a separate folder. This is better than using monochrome setting for camera jpg and then shooting RAW, you retain the option of color previews.
Do all your major adjustments including dodge and burn in the RAW processor (with control points), prep the image as much as you can.
There are countless conversion methods but the one which is closest to B&W film is the lightness channel method with LAB color space. Here is a popular exmaple: http://www.blackandwhitedigital.com/Convert/luminosity/gorman.html
Do all your major adjustments including dodge and burn in the RAW processor (with control points), prep the image as much as you can.
There are countless conversion methods but the one which is closest to B&W film is the lightness channel method with LAB color space. Here is a popular exmaple: http://www.blackandwhitedigital.com/Convert/luminosity/gorman.html
V-12
Well-known
A combination of Photoshop (for me, but maybe Lightroom for you) and Silver Efex Pro is the way to go. Silver Efex Pro not only simplifies into a small job many Layers and Masks that in Photoshop would have been a big job, but also adds many other tricks. Added into Photoshop as a plugin you still get the traditional darkrooms ability to dodge and burn (plus other things like dust removal etc), and you give yourself a massive chance to come up with something you like from a colour RAW conversion.
R
rpsawin
Guest
I have just recently tweaked my conversion workflow. In PS5 I open my raw file in either Vavesa or Color Efex Pro and make my initial corrections/adjustments. I then open the file in Silver Efex Pro, do my conversion and make any additional corrections/adjustments.
My primary digital cameras are an M8 and a D700. I am going to scan several rolls of b&w film and am a bit anxious about the workflow with them.
Best regards,
Bob
My primary digital cameras are an M8 and a D700. I am going to scan several rolls of b&w film and am a bit anxious about the workflow with them.
Best regards,
Bob
Duane Pandorf
Well-known
I use Apple's Aperture to maintain my photo library. I've also purchased the complete Nik Collection. I really like all the flexibility that Silver Efex Pro offers but I can "waste" a lot of time "tinkering" with one image.
For time sake I've come up with my own presets in Aperture to convert my color images to B&W. And often do this as the images are imported saving a lot of time.
If there is one image I really want to spend time with I can take the original RAW image into Silver Efex Pro.
For time sake I've come up with my own presets in Aperture to convert my color images to B&W. And often do this as the images are imported saving a lot of time.
If there is one image I really want to spend time with I can take the original RAW image into Silver Efex Pro.