B&W Film Moovies

"The Thrid Man" was not only a masterpiece of B&W cinema, but might I also point out that Welles broke new ground (not counting silent films) in using the single zither played by Anton Karas for the entire soundtrack. I have the movie, but I also found a CD if Karas' music.
 
respectfully, this is a completely ignorant statement.

Or, alternately, that you misread my statement then took the opportunity to toot your own horn. :D

A lot of lower budget stuff isn't even shot on film anymore, it's shot on DV. There's a mentality among some production people that shooting video is "free," or nearly so, and the technology of both high speed film and DV allows shooting to be done under conditions that were unimaginable using low iso film, which absolutely had to be lit. If you're shooting high-end commercials and features, then the rules - and the budgets - are different.
 
please, I dont even post my photography here, this is the last place I go to impress people. As needlessly argumentative as you are with people routinely on this board, I'll humour you once.

Your intital post did not address video. It specifically addressed 25 vs. 500 iso film and inspired my response which incidentally was not intended as a dig on you. Regardless, your new statement is a strawman to your original point and still, my response is similar.

In the mid 90's NYC was flooded with DV features, little piddly $100K things that were all the rave once swiss effects did the transfer on "the celebration" and everyone thought that video was the new wave, like it was some kind of new thing and hadn't existed since the late 70's in widespread commercial form. I worked on TONS of those little movies and the lighting budgets on those things were no different than jobs of similar ambition shot on 16mm. If you are shooting live action, you have to cover often large areas and you need lots of heads to do this. The *size* of those heads is grossly different, but you still need just as big of a truck to make it happen.

What digital video brought, in terms of your lighting rental, was a shift from lighting with tungsten to lighting with flourescents. You still had primarily the same amount of heads on a job. What kino flows DID allow you to cut was a significant portion of your grip budget if you found a gaffer that would let that happen. Since the light source is softer you can get away with less modifiers. You still need the lights though.

If you are talking about blair witch and the rest of the garbage that followed it that nobody will ever see, these movies werent lit in the first place and really dont factor into this discussion.

As a general rule, ISO, be it film or tape does not have nearly the impact that one would think it would have on a motion picture of any budget. If you are lucky enough to have a first camera assistant who is good enough to pull it off and you elect to shoot your whole movie wide open at 500 iso ("changing lanes" comes to mind) you *still* need to light the hell out of a set. I dont know how many of you guys here have experience using hot lights in a scenario where actors need to move around but by the time you put a 1K out of the cameras view and diffuse that light to taste, you'd be pretty shocked at the stop you get at the actors mark and unless your whole movie is all about people standing in pools of light, which would be righteous, you need a lot of heads to light a set if you want it lit somewhat evenly, which %98 of what you watch is.
 
These are both breat

These are both breat

by Jim Jarmusch.

Another good (mostly) b&w movie was Rumble Fish.

Jim Jarmusch's "Stranger than Paradise" has already been mentioned. I would also like to add his films "Dead Man" for its disturbing and brilliant portrayal of the American West, and "Down By Law" which creates a palpable hot and humid New Orleans. The DoP in both cases was the the brilliant Robby Müller (also DoP of Mystery Train, Breaking the Waves and Dancer in the Dark).
 
As needlessly argumentative as you are with people routinely on this board, I'll humour you once.

Insulting and condescending! Great conversation starter! :D

I'll never understand this internet tendency to assume that whatever bailiwick one inhabits is the whole world. You have your experiences, and I have mine. Sounds like you work on big budget stuff, and I assume that what you're reporting is accurate. (sounds like fun, too) But photography is a really, really big field, and there's TONS of experience out there. I distinctly remember working on projects where every aspect of the budget - including lighting - was heavily scrutinized. And high speed film DOES allow DP's to do things simply not possible with low iso film. I remember getting 2nd unit shots with an Arri 435 loaded with Vision 500T and a PA holding a bounce card, and I'm pretty sure I couldn't have done that with iso 25 stock.

Your point that most movie sets are highly lit is, of course, accurate. But it doesn't contradict the fact that faster speed movie stocks offer options that simply weren't possible back in the studio days.
 
Perhaps I may help the discussion by stating that a few days ago I saw on the same tv anotther famous movie: Maltese Falcon, directed by John Houston and played by Humphrey Bogart and Peter Lore. This film was done at 1941.

This film may represent the average Hollywood ligthing set. Mostly you don't have undetailed blacks or bleached whites, I still prefer its lighting to Clooney's latter films. But dear folks - much below the league of The Third Man...

So my personal, PERSONAL, conlusions are as follows. Filming today in color and transforming it to BW is for my viasual taste a fiasco. Any average BW film moovie will be seen better. The Third Man belong to another league, the upper one among BW.

I hope not to have offended anyone and if more upper league BW filming is remembered - please refer all of us.


Cheers,
Ruben
 
Ruben, why on earth do you not like Cooney's efforts. From my recollection (and here, I presume you are referring to "Good Night and Good Luck" and the "The Good German" which I have on DVD but have not watched for a while) they were both shot using specific film stock designed to match the old films and old uncoated lenses.

I vaguely recall watching TGG and being enchanted by the realisation that he must have used uncoated pre war lenses as the rendition of light was quite reminiscent of old Summars and Elmars that are uncoated - eg goodly amounts of flare from direct light sources and a nice fim noire look. I thought that this added greatly to the film's verisimiltude (hows that for a ten dollar word!)

As mentioned elsewhere "The Third Man" is another great classic that TGG is very reminiscent of. But I have to reveal a secret shame. Although I have Citizen Kane. I have just never been able to get into it despite several attempts and probably have never seen it from beginnning to end without wandering away from the screen or dozing off.

PS entirely uinrelated but if you want to enjoy a visual treat in which the film makers cosciously try to emulate old film making techniques and succeed (not only my view judging by the great number of awards it gleaned) watch the film, "Shadow of the Vampire" starring John Malkovich and Willem Dafoe. It is spooky, drmatic and lots of fun. (Despite its name it is not a teenage shock film but a serious drama.)
 
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'GAS LIGHT' 1944 directed by George Cukor
starring Charles Boyer & Ingrid Bergman
The opening Scenes are MAGNIFICENT ......
the B&W trippy cinematography
Out of focus / Into focus is pure Magic :)

(and of course Akira Kurosawa B&W samurai flicks are Divine)

Best- h
 
Philippe Garrel's "Regular Lovers"
Came out a few years ago--usually you don't see B+W films shot so well these days.
 
I don't think "The Good German" looks so much like a classic B&W movie. I don't know how it was shot (B&W or color stock) or what work was done in post, but the overall effect is like a Photoshop trick applied too heavily.
 
From my recollection (and here, I presume you are referring to "Good Night and Good Luck" and the "The Good German" which I have on DVD but have not watched for a while) they were both shot using specific film stock designed to match the old films and old uncoated lenses.


Peter, both good night and good luck and the good german were both shot on the run of the mill kodak color vision stock. There was a ton of chroma key in the good german and you *need* to shoot in color to do that. The movie could not have been shot on black and white negative. The whole look of the movie was achieved with the digital intermediate used for the color timing.

The good german was shot on Panavision primes. I know it was shot on an older set of lenses, but odds are they were coated, probably single coated. It is doubtful that they used prewar anything, panavision started up in the mid 50's... Thats a lot of conjecture on my part as I wasnt part of that production, but it would be out of character for panavision (if you understand the mentality of the company) to take some old ancient lens and put a pana mount on it just to satisfy the mighty aliased peter andrews.

The Maltese Falcon and Casablanca to me, are good examples of a job being put through the formula grinder, the look of those movies and the thousands like them are very much about just getting it done, these are very bright movies with not alot of detail put into cutting light everywhere, which of course is what the third man is all about. I always kinda felt that "the desperate hours" is a better example of "get it done" look done right.

Kubrick served noir right with the killers kiss and especially the interiors on the killing.
 
Ruben, why on earth do you not like Cooney's efforts. From my recollection (and here, I presume you are referring to "Good Night and Good Luck" and the "The Good German" which I have on DVD but have not watched for a while) they were both shot using specific film stock designed to match the old films and old uncoated lenses. .....


Hi Peter,
For sure Clooneys effort to keep B&W on the agenda, are to be taken for good, supported, and even followed for his nex trial.

But as a matter of fact "my problem" started with Good Night and Good Luck. When seeing it I immediately perceived "something bad" in the BW treatment. If I was to see the film for a second time (and I cannot because I don't own a copy) there is a chance I would discover that the main reason was in the lighting, and not only in type of BW, as I assumed first.

Nevertheless, I was not sure at the time what the problem was, beyond the explanations given at RFF, until I saw some week ago The Third Man.

I think that perhaps now the issue may be that you are short of a copy of The Third Man, but the gap in quality indeed exists - to my eyes.

As said, I have nothing against Clooney, on the contrary. My prizing of The Third Man doesn't imply that this is the example to be copyied nowadays. But ceirtainly this can be the standard.


Cheers,
Ruben
 
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"Der Himmel Über Berlin" was good. Half of it is b&w.
That film is amazing. Just amazing. as an extra bonus, it stars Peter Falk. The English language title of the film is "Wings Of Desire"
I want to add my support of The Third Man. Just a fantastic film. beautifully shot, great story, and that zither!
 
The good german was shot on Panavision primes. I know it was shot on an older set of lenses, but odds are they were coated, probably single coated. It is doubtful that they used prewar anything, panavision started up in the mid 50's... Thats a lot of conjecture on my part as I wasnt part of that production, but it would be out of character for panavision (if you understand the mentality of the company) to take some old ancient lens and put a pana mount on it just to satisfy the mighty aliased peter andrews.

To continue the conjecture (and as I previously stated), my bet would be that Cooke Speed Panchros were used for "The Good German." You can find a whole bunch of internet-whooey about how this movie made use of a 32mm lens. 32mm lenses are very common amongst modern lenses, but for vintage lens sets they are probably unique to the Cookes. I say probably because I am not familiar with all vintage cine lenses, but I can say, with a good degree of certainty that the Speed Panchros are probably the most available vintage lens set containing a 32mm lens.

Every major rental house in L.A. has these lenses. They are are single coated and produce an excellent flarey/low contrast look, wide-open. Even today, the Panchros see quite a bit of work in everything from advertising (a certain matchdotcom ad from a while back) to music videos and features (close-ups of Angelina Jolie in "Mr and Mrs Smith).
 
Fellini's 8 1/2 I think is brilliant, every scene is moving and flows seemlessly to the next, the b&W looks great for most scenes but my copy has a few bad transfers I think. La dolce vita has some pretty scenes, especially the night scenes in the city, but I did not like the movie that much.
I recently saw the Bicycle Theif, cant remember the name of the director, late 1940s italian movie. Depressing story but interesting to watch, almost all available light, sunny roman streets, rainyday, early morning light. Quite common in Italian movies of that era to film out of the studio because the studios were mostly wrecked during the war, from what I understand.
 
Here's an off-the-wall suggestion: Les Vacances de Monsieur Hulot. I found the BW entirely beautiful, and Tati's quirky humour a delight.

Kirk
 
To continue the conjecture (and as I previously stated), my bet would be that Cooke Speed Panchros were used for "The Good German." You can find a whole bunch of internet-whooey about how this movie made use of a 32mm lens. 32mm lenses are very common amongst modern lenses, but for vintage lens sets they are probably unique to the Cookes. I say probably because I am not familiar with all vintage cine lenses, but I can say, with a good degree of certainty that the Speed Panchros are probably the most available vintage lens set containing a 32mm lens.

Every major rental house in L.A. has these lenses. They are are single coated and produce an excellent flarey/low contrast look, wide-open. Even today, the Panchros see quite a bit of work in everything from advertising (a certain matchdotcom ad from a while back) to music videos and features (close-ups of Angelina Jolie in "Mr and Mrs Smith).

thats a fully reasonable asessment. I should see if I can get a definitive answer one way or another...
 
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