Bill Pierce
Well-known
If you want to spend Leica dollars without going into the premium priced special editions of their cameras, you can purchase a Leica Monochom for $7950 and the newest of their standard lens, the 50mm, f/2 Summicron for $7195. If the introduction of the latest M with its 24MP CMOS sensor instead of the previous digital M’s CCD sensor casts doubt on the earlier M’s, this newest M Leica will come in at $6,950 in early 2013.
Before you scream about high prices, the Canon EOS 1DX comes in at $6,799 and the Nikon D3X at $6,999. The real difference in price comes when you look at the major manufacturers’ lower priced cameras. You can purchase the Canon 6D, a full frame camera introduced at Photokina, for $2,099 or Nikon’s D600 for $2099.95 . But the just announced Leica M-E, a slightly stripped version of the CCD M9 is $5,450.
I think that the problem for professional photographers is that they need MULTIPLE BODIES. You should have a back up body to cover you in case of a camera malfunction. In the case of a Leica, which depends primarily on fixed focal-length lenses, you might want two bodies for quick shooting with two lenses. Some professionals who shoot with two rangefinder bodies might be more comfortable in the hinterlands with a third body for back up.
Maybe there is no client outside of himself for a dedicated amateur, but he’s not going to be thrilled when a camera goes down and there’s no back up.
Economical back ups are important to most of the photographers who really use their cameras and don’t wear them as conspicuous consumption jewelry. What does the digital rangefinder photographer do? I don’t want to skew the conversation. I’ve talked about my perspective in other threads, and I’ll post it later if relevant. What’s important are solutions. Hopefully, you have some because I don’t see rangefinders in the hands of the good young photographers that are coming up. And that’s kind of sad.
Before you scream about high prices, the Canon EOS 1DX comes in at $6,799 and the Nikon D3X at $6,999. The real difference in price comes when you look at the major manufacturers’ lower priced cameras. You can purchase the Canon 6D, a full frame camera introduced at Photokina, for $2,099 or Nikon’s D600 for $2099.95 . But the just announced Leica M-E, a slightly stripped version of the CCD M9 is $5,450.
I think that the problem for professional photographers is that they need MULTIPLE BODIES. You should have a back up body to cover you in case of a camera malfunction. In the case of a Leica, which depends primarily on fixed focal-length lenses, you might want two bodies for quick shooting with two lenses. Some professionals who shoot with two rangefinder bodies might be more comfortable in the hinterlands with a third body for back up.
Maybe there is no client outside of himself for a dedicated amateur, but he’s not going to be thrilled when a camera goes down and there’s no back up.
Economical back ups are important to most of the photographers who really use their cameras and don’t wear them as conspicuous consumption jewelry. What does the digital rangefinder photographer do? I don’t want to skew the conversation. I’ve talked about my perspective in other threads, and I’ll post it later if relevant. What’s important are solutions. Hopefully, you have some because I don’t see rangefinders in the hands of the good young photographers that are coming up. And that’s kind of sad.
migtex
Don't eXchange Freedom!
Probably reminiscent from my PJ times I always try to have two (or three...) bodies. Normally I shoot with two being it RF's or SLR/DSLR's. When traveling light just one and a P/S. There is nothing more painful than "lose" the only camera you carrying.
Young lads are showing up, coming from "lomo" world but it depends on the deep of the their pockets on these hard times... very, very hard times
I know we all know him, but this young photographer is difficult to pass...
Young lads are showing up, coming from "lomo" world but it depends on the deep of the their pockets on these hard times... very, very hard times
I know we all know him, but this young photographer is difficult to pass...
Roger Hicks
Veteran
The trouble is that 'back-up' is a very flexible term. Shooting hard news in the middle of a battle or riot is very different from shooting features or stock in the Himalayas.
In a sense, yes, two identical bodies is the 'gold standard' In another, all you need is a back-up camera that will allow you to get pictures that the client will be happy with. For an extreme example, and many years ago, the Nikon outfit that a friend of mine had taken along for a shoot in Norway want walkies for a week, and he shot 90% of the assignment with a Rollei 35. All the pics the client used were shot with the Rollei...Given how many Leicas I've had fail on me in 30+ years (an M2 in the 1990s), I'm happy enough with an M8 as back-up to an M9, with a film M as a back-up to the back-up.
There's also the point that if you're earning a lot of money with your cameras, then camera prices shouldn't matter much.
Cheers,
R.
In a sense, yes, two identical bodies is the 'gold standard' In another, all you need is a back-up camera that will allow you to get pictures that the client will be happy with. For an extreme example, and many years ago, the Nikon outfit that a friend of mine had taken along for a shoot in Norway want walkies for a week, and he shot 90% of the assignment with a Rollei 35. All the pics the client used were shot with the Rollei...Given how many Leicas I've had fail on me in 30+ years (an M2 in the 1990s), I'm happy enough with an M8 as back-up to an M9, with a film M as a back-up to the back-up.
There's also the point that if you're earning a lot of money with your cameras, then camera prices shouldn't matter much.
Cheers,
R.
giellaleafapmu
Well-known
Problem is that with a Canicon you can get one pro body and you have a huge choice of old models gone cheap and/or new semipro or whatever they are called models which can be used as backups. I am not that young I am not that good and probably I would still have a couple of concerns about using mostly and mainly a rangefinder but maybe if Leica had a middle level camera or if Zeiss or Voigtlander made a digital RF or if Epson updated theirs things could be different. The only solution I see now for a not so expensive second body are adapters on a Nex or a Fuji or the Ricoh module. I still would have some concerns about the lack of a dedicated wireless system, not being able to use long lenses, no shift-tilt lenses...all in all I think that real RF are now deemed to be second systems paired to a jack of all trades DSLR. What people call mirrorless probably will be a different story but their design is still immature, maybe in a few years...
GLF
GLF
shimokita
白黒
I guess we are talking about the amateur (dedicated or otherwise) or a new/semi pro, because with a PRO there is only the one business solution not depending on the system used.
With the former group, it's a trade-off of time, money, convienence... and the solutions are as various as the individuals and shooting situations. Personal networking or "mfg professional services" in some situations...
Regarding your second point of "good young photographers that are coming up"... Yes, the situation vis-a-vis the financial implications of current pricing has caused some shift since the days of film, not to confuse "want" and "need". To be honest I don't worry about the new members that are coming up, those with natural ability or aptitude... and interest will find a way.
Casey
With the former group, it's a trade-off of time, money, convienence... and the solutions are as various as the individuals and shooting situations. Personal networking or "mfg professional services" in some situations...
Regarding your second point of "good young photographers that are coming up"... Yes, the situation vis-a-vis the financial implications of current pricing has caused some shift since the days of film, not to confuse "want" and "need". To be honest I don't worry about the new members that are coming up, those with natural ability or aptitude... and interest will find a way.
Casey
willie_901
Veteran
For some camera are just a cost of doing business. These costs are passed on to clients. It's just like a delivery service buying trucks.
People who photograph primarily for the love of photography are in a completely different situation. Those who with limited disposable income have to make compromises and take chances. These people are not going to own two digital Ms. Two low priced M8s are still at least $4K. So financially constrained photographers who prefer digital media won't be using two M Leicas. The X1 or 2 could serve as a back up for those who will only use Leica products. But this option is certainly a compromise conpared to owning two Ms.
Many digital photographers just keep their old digital body as a back up to their new body. This possibility is often ignored by those who complain digital cameras are undesirable because they depreciate too quickly. Buying a competent non-Leica digital body every three years is not an outrageous expense for many serious amateur photographers.
Right now a used D300 and D200 can be had for about $1K. They are large, heavy and loud compared to an OM5D, Ricoh GR, NEX or X-Pro 1, but they can produce excellent photographs in the right hands. There are many other choices that are equally affordable.
This situation is no different than other (relatively) expensive hobbies. I have been in the paddock of amateur sports car races where one driver would fly in spare parts (a transmission!) overnight via charter plane to make it through a race weekend while others had no choice but to pack up and go home after an expensive component failed.
C'est la vie.
People who photograph primarily for the love of photography are in a completely different situation. Those who with limited disposable income have to make compromises and take chances. These people are not going to own two digital Ms. Two low priced M8s are still at least $4K. So financially constrained photographers who prefer digital media won't be using two M Leicas. The X1 or 2 could serve as a back up for those who will only use Leica products. But this option is certainly a compromise conpared to owning two Ms.
Many digital photographers just keep their old digital body as a back up to their new body. This possibility is often ignored by those who complain digital cameras are undesirable because they depreciate too quickly. Buying a competent non-Leica digital body every three years is not an outrageous expense for many serious amateur photographers.
Right now a used D300 and D200 can be had for about $1K. They are large, heavy and loud compared to an OM5D, Ricoh GR, NEX or X-Pro 1, but they can produce excellent photographs in the right hands. There are many other choices that are equally affordable.
This situation is no different than other (relatively) expensive hobbies. I have been in the paddock of amateur sports car races where one driver would fly in spare parts (a transmission!) overnight via charter plane to make it through a race weekend while others had no choice but to pack up and go home after an expensive component failed.
C'est la vie.
Duane Pandorf
Well-known
Since I'm just a hobbyiest, a second GXR-M with EVF would be enough for me. But then I need to finish my lens kit before I buy a backup.
I would have to agree with the opinion that one who is earning a living shooting better have a backup. The challenge I'd see with an M8 as a backup to a 9 is the sensor crop on the 8 and the FOV your going to have with the lens in your bag.
I would have to agree with the opinion that one who is earning a living shooting better have a backup. The challenge I'd see with an M8 as a backup to a 9 is the sensor crop on the 8 and the FOV your going to have with the lens in your bag.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Then again, some people do have an overly romantic idea of how much 'pros' earn. Fine art 'pros' in particular often choose to live very simply in order to feed their photographic habit; so do many photojournalists. 'Passing costs on to the clients' may work in high-end advertising, or even in high-end wedding or industrial, but a lot of clients in publishing just don't pay very much to ANYONE.
Cheers,
R.
Cheers,
R.
Pablito
coco frío
Yeah, exactly. And I need backup (two identical bodies), and owning TWO digital M cameras is totally out of the question. I can't even afford one.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Pablito, I am in the same situation. I cannot afford even one used M9, but I have two M6 bodies (and that took a lot of sacrifice to buy, but they still cost less in total than one used M9!).
When I decided to get a digital camera back in January, I got a Canon 5DmkII. I use it for work that isn't urgent enough to require a backup; if it breaks, I have time to get another to finish whatever job I am doing when it breaks. It cost, new, half what a used M9 costs. And it has a warranty, and I know it has not been abused by a previous owner.
Leica has basically told professionals like us to go get f--ked. They make good cameras, but so does Canon and Nikon and several others.
thegman
Veteran
I think Chris is right. Leica don't serve the professional market, whether you like it or not, Leica is not in the same business as Canon or Nikon. Leica make beautiful cameras for a discerning buyer, Canon and Nikon make tools for professionals, as well as the consumer market of course.
I'm not a professional, but when I'm away from home, I like to have a backup camera, I don't care about them being identical though, or even the same lens mount. I have the luxury of not taking photographs for a living though.
I'm not a professional, but when I'm away from home, I like to have a backup camera, I don't care about them being identical though, or even the same lens mount. I have the luxury of not taking photographs for a living though.
Fraser
Well-known
When I'm at work I like three bodies and they have to be exactly the same (well they don't have to but its nice) and thats where the expense comes in everyone likes to have the latest model but when you have to buy three at a time suddenly its will these cameras make me more money no, I think I will stick with what I have!
Dogman
Veteran
Although I never was a Boy Scout, the motto "Be Prepared" always appealed to me. When I worked as a news photographer, I had multiple camera bodies and overlapping focal lengths in prime and zoom lenses. Since I had the reputation of occasionally getting my cameras destroyed on assignments, it was a wise decision to have several cameras available as well as an up-to-date personal property insurance policy. I haven't worked as a photographer for over 20 years but I always buy backup camera bodies even today. I don't need the multi-thousand dollar professional models--lower priced "entry level" models or used camera bodies work fine for my needs.
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
I believe the Fuji X-Pro1 and the X-E1 is a fabulous combination for anyone. It takes just a slight adjustment in behavior to use these cameras. Image quality? I suspect the Fuji images are equal, and possibly better in low light. And the cost? Currently $1700 for the XP1 and $1000 for the X-E1. Using M-mount lenses, especially wide angles, is no problem (zone focusing is best method, and the magnified view method is not bad either). This leave serious money for lenses.
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
And another thing... if this professional photographer is working for news organization, I suspect a bag full of Canon G-type, or Sony NEX stuff would serve the needs very well and are easily replaced.
giellaleafapmu
Well-known
I think all are right in this thread but don't forget that there are pro, semi-pro, occasional pro which don't live in the first world. I am one of those and if a camera breaks I have to go the painful route of international shipping with either the risk of never seeing my camera again or the duty of declaring values and use couriers which imply also paying taxes (yep, on my own stuff sometimes!). Life is not always simple.
In this of course Canicon once again have the advantage of having service points in most places and also to be very popular meaning spare parts are available easily, Leica...well forget about it. As for clients paying the costs of camera, that's truly a possibility but when you produce two indistinguishable images, one using a 2,000 US$ combo and the other using a 10,000 US$ combo, assuming you could really charge the 10,000 US$ combo costs to the client, it still means that you get 8,000 US$ more in your pocket if you use the cheaper one. Also, my experience (not uncommon if I have to believe many of the posts here) is that many people paying for photographs have absolutely no idea of the technology behind and might even like the fact that you show up at the session with a large "Pro" body, and when that body stays on a tripod tethered to a computer all the time any size advantage of a Leica is meaningless anyway. Indeed we are talking two completely different markets here and my guess is that most Pros fall into Canicon market.
GLF
icebear
Veteran
Sorry, Chris but this statement is some of the brown soft stuff that comes from the cattle's behind
. If you care about your artistic ability to express yourself, does it depend on some small scale camera manufacturer that simply can't meet other big guy's price calculations?
If you are a RFF kind of guy and a Leica M guy for that matter, than just continue to use your two M6s. Going Leica M digital has implication on the workflow but not on your ability to earn your money.
There is Leica Pro service with significant better turnaround times and Kristian got an M9 loaner when he had issues with his other digital body. I'm not sure if he is special and he was an exception but from where do you get the "no loaner" policy statement?
NaChase
Well-known
I wouldn't call myself an "up and comer" by any sense, but I am young (at least relatively). I believe in having a backup, which is why I shoot and M6 and M3 and a Nikon F2S and F2AS. For all intents and purposes the cameras are identical and I typically have either the same film or one black and white and one color in each of the two cameras I carry on me while out shooting. I certainly do not have a lot of money, but I scrounge for deals and wait for the right camera to come around.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
If I'm a pro being paid for a shoot, I want a backup. If I can't afford a second M body, I rent one and charge as part of my equipment use fees. Or I use a different and less expensive camera as the backup.
As an amateur/hobbyist, I've never seen the necessity of carrying a camera as backup. The only things I'm dealing with as an amateur are self-imposed, and if I can afford two bodies to make my shooting more convenient, and provide backup, fine: just buy them and use as apropos. Otherwise, if the camera fails in the field, well, I just don't take more photos that day. Life sucks, you move on and plan the next outing, otherwise enjoy the day.
Of course I have plenty of backup anyway ... in different cameras ... if I feel compelled that I have to shoot every day even if my main camera went down. I can always stuff an older Leica film body into the bag with a couple of rolls of film as backup. My CL body cost me $350, which makes it an easy, inexpensive backup to the M9 if I so choose to perceive it that way.
As an amateur/hobbyist, I've never seen the necessity of carrying a camera as backup. The only things I'm dealing with as an amateur are self-imposed, and if I can afford two bodies to make my shooting more convenient, and provide backup, fine: just buy them and use as apropos. Otherwise, if the camera fails in the field, well, I just don't take more photos that day. Life sucks, you move on and plan the next outing, otherwise enjoy the day.
Of course I have plenty of backup anyway ... in different cameras ... if I feel compelled that I have to shoot every day even if my main camera went down. I can always stuff an older Leica film body into the bag with a couple of rolls of film as backup. My CL body cost me $350, which makes it an easy, inexpensive backup to the M9 if I so choose to perceive it that way.
icebear
Veteran
Great example of flexibilty to prevent to get in one's own way
. Some seem to be as flexible as a rock.