Beginner thinks out loud

Welcome to our little world, Jack!

BTW, My Leicas take better pictures than my Nikons. Now watch the comments.😛

Seriously, enjoy your Leicas, I do. Be yourself and be confident. Shoot lots and then shoot some more. Life is too short not to enjoy your photography which includes the gear.:angel:
 
Quite often people feeling bored and disappointed in street photography come up with complex reasons as to why street photography is bad and unethical.
 
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Third, taking people's pictures feels intrusive.
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It can also be insulting to walk around town with your camera and *not* take a picture of someone all dressed up. Just imagine you're that woman who spent hours getting her outfit all perfect and then there's a guy with a camera completely neglecting you? 🙂

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uhoh7 said:
Well if you are in a city you are on CCTV everyday. Nobody thinks twice about that. But if you SEE a stranger shoot your pic, you may take offense.

Just never let them see you, Jack 🙂

Re billions of images. You're right, today we see so many shots we get jaded and think, so what?

However you also might ask, why write a diary? So much has been written, what's the point? For me my photostream is a diary, and once in awhile strangers--and of course family---enjoy the entries. The better the shot, the more power it has to make me reflect.

You could also ask a 6 yr old: why finger paint? So much has been fingerpainted already. 🙂

For that matter our existence itself is a bit redundant---7 billion?---except to us 😉
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An excellent point, although I still think it's true that we live in a period in history when we're especially saturated with manufactured images. . . and perhaps for some of us that awareness informs image making. I remember being part of the art scene in New York on the Lower East Side in the 1980s and feeling the same thing about making art --was I really going to contribute to, you know, throwing more things on the pile, just making more _stuff_?

J.
 
claacct said:
Quite often people feeling bored and disappointed in street photography come up with complex reasons as to why street photography is bad and unethical.
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BTW, Jack, don't let some comments get under your skin. That is just the way forums are.

Feelings about photographing people change over time. For that matter, feelings about PEOPLE change over time. So, just go out and do what you like, don't worry about us.😉

Remember YOU are the most important person to YOU and we will be happy to help where we can if you want us to!:angel:
 
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Let me tell you Jack, it's great to "see" you again. I'm not so involved in the old haunts any more, but like you I value film in cameras, new and old, and spend as much time as possible walking the street. It's good for you, whether art is the result or not.

Now that you have the fancy schmancy film camera we'll be needing the dark room, won't we? Or have you already sprung that one on your wife? 🙂

All the best, and welcome.

Jeff
 
hellomikmik said:
i think you are asking yourself right questions.
dig deeper, don't listen to others people: "it's ok, don't worry"
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Thanks I appreciate it --I've been around the block as an artist and writer enough to value the importance of feedback, and also to know it's important, if possible, to know your own mind. Part of the reason I'm here is because after all I don't want to make images in a vacuum; I want people to see them!

J.
 
Roger Hicks said:
Dear Jack,

First highlight: Why not?

Until you are, maybe you'll never be happy about photographing people.

Remember, HCB gave it up for drawing -- and reputedly, he hated being photographed.

For me, anyone who photographs people but who objects to being photographed is about as intellectually and morally dishonest as it is possible to be. You don't have to like being photographed -- but objecting is another matter.

(I place quite a high value on intellectual honesty.)

Second highlight: unless you feel you can say something worthwhile with your pictures, there is indeed no reason to add to "the billions of images that are made every day". So don't. Much like adding to all the crap on the internet. You think you had something worthwhile to add there (here), something that wasn't crap (and I agree). Show the same self-confidence behind your camera as behind your keyboard,

Cheers,

R.
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You mean, I take it, why do I not like being photographed? A number of reasons but the least dignified is probably the most powerful: vanity.

And I appreciate the encouragement. It's not the nerve to shoot I lack (I've shot plenty of pictures) it's the satisfaction with the results I don't feel, although as I've learned from writing professionally, beyond a certain point your opinion of your own work is meaningless and you really do have to get on with it. I have no problem sticking to several thousand words a day as a writer but I've achieved a level of confidence in prose that I don't have yet with film. Although, frankly, I'm enjoying being a beginner 🙂 .

J.
 
celluloidprop said:
This is a big issue for me - it was highlighted by an image that's probably long gone from RFF. Someone was touring India (IIRC) and had taken a photo of a woman begging. It was shot from some distance (15-20 feet), from normal standing height (she was sitting or kneeling), and was your basic 'here's an interesting looking homeless person!' shot. It repulsed me, and it had numerous extremely positive comments in the gallery.

I don't think that images on the street (made for art's sake - documentary/PJ work is a separate issue) need to be philosophically justifiable on a higher plane so much as humane and respectful.

There's not a lot of talk, even in the philosophy of photography forum here, about the ethics of public photography.
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You know I'm really happy to hear you say this as misery loves company 😀 it doesn't seem to me as if there are easy answers to this question. That does not mean we should not shoot, but I think we are kidding ourselves if we let ourselves completely off the hook in terms of addressing the issues it raises. (I like your sig line, by the way --I am compiling my own list of street photography dont's, one of which is black and white pictures of wet bicycles 😀 ) "Humane and respectful" is very, very well put. I don't want to be that new guy who starts talking about HCB right away but you know, his pictures always seemed deeply sympathetic to the subjects. I really struggle with folks like Larry Clark and, in a different way, Diane Arbus; I find both of their bodies of work weirdly hard to look away from but I am not sure it is out of an honorable impulse, to be totally honest.

J.
 
FrankS said:
It is important to examine what one is doing and ask tough questions, in order to keep oneself mindful and honest. I was thinking that if there is something that makes one feel uncomfortable it usually only means one of two things: either your gut is telling you that what you are doing, whatever it is, is wrong and you should stop, or the uncomfort indicates that you have found an area for growth in yourself and the uncomfort comes from an unconscious realization of that. Just thinking out loud myself.
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Exactly! That is precisely the dilemma on whose horns I find myself; and the only way to find out is to go out and shoot. Fortunately most of the images I've made so far are so technically lousy it's a non-issue but, you know, one of these days 😉. One of my kung fu teachers used to say that irritation is a sign of arousal of energy in the organism and preparation for work, and I think that is the case here --and I feel an excitement in asking these questions and hearing the answers I haven't felt about anything in quite a while.

J.
 
dave lackey said:
Welcome to our little world, Jack!

BTW, My Leicas take better pictures than my Nikons. Now watch the comments.😛

Seriously, enjoy your Leicas, I do. Be yourself and be confident. Shoot lots and then shoot some more. Life is too short not to enjoy your photography which includes the gear.:angel:
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Thanks Dave. All these ethical and philosophical conundrums aside I gotta admit there is something about handling a Leica that is immensely satisfying. It's juvenile but everytime I see a picture of HCB (or any other famous lensman/woman) holding one, a little part of my withered old heart beats a little quicker, hahaha.

J.
 
jawarden said:
Let me tell you Jack, it's great to "see" you again. I'm not so involved in the old haunts any more, but like you I value film in cameras, new and old, and spend as much time as possible walking the street. It's good for you, whether art is the result or not.

Now that you have the fancy schmancy film camera we'll be needing the dark room, won't we? Or have you already sprung that one on your wife? 🙂

All the best, and welcome.

Jeff
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Jeff!! Well I'll be damned 😀 what a wonderful surprise!! Yeah, at some point watch collecting starts to seem too one dimensional, too juvenile, and above all too expensive so one has to find some other juvenile expensive hobby 😉 . Really, really pleased to see you here.

J.
 
JackForster said:
J. . . so one has to find some other juvenile expensive hobby 😉 . Really, really pleased to see you here.

J.
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Actually I've been quite, uh, mature about photography: one camera, two lenses. Oh wait, I bought that Yashica Mat this year just to see if I would like looking down instead of out (I didn't). And there is the Holga, purchased to see if I would enjoy an absence of quality (I didn't). 🙂

As for taking photos on the street, we all have our way. Looking at my images I see a lot of people smiling, and city scenes that I enjoy, but I will not take pictures of other people suffering, and I won't take images of people at close quarters without their permission. I just won't.

I'm thankful others do though, or we wouldn't have the work of Winogrand and other fearless types to enjoy.

I've been fascinated with Vivian Maier and her approach to street photography lately. She seemed to hit the sweet spot of being close enough to the action to see and make splendid images, but not cross the line. Whatever the line is. Maybe the line is where the photographer becomes too visible in the image (Bruce Gilden fills that role for me). Anyway, Vivian made the finest image of a curled up sad sack of a homeless man I've ever seen. If you've seen her work at all you'll know the image.

What were we talking about?

🙂

Jeff
 
JackForster said:
You mean, I take it, why do I not like being photographed? A number of reasons but the least dignified is probably the most powerful: vanity.

And I appreciate the encouragement. It's not the nerve to shoot I lack (I've shot plenty of pictures) it's the satisfaction with the results I don't feel, although as I've learned from writing professionally, beyond a certain point your opinion of your own work is meaningless and you really do have to get on with it. I have no problem sticking to several thousand words a day as a writer but I've achieved a level of confidence in prose that I don't have yet with film. Although, frankly, I'm enjoying being a beginner 🙂 .

J.
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Dear Jack,

Vanity of vanity, all is vanity, saieth the Preacher. Ecclesiastes, of course. But I find vanity quite easy to crush. Do I normally look a bigger fool, or uglier, than other people? No. Sometimes I look a fool, sometimes I look quite clever. There's not much I can do about my looks, and still less that I am prepared to do. So why worry?

It's interesting you should say "several thousand words a day." I regard this as normal, too, but a while back I was discussing this with other journalists and writers and they seemed to regard a couple of thousand as quite a lot.

As for your own opinion of your own work, anyone who isn't racked with self-doubt from time to time is probably not much good at what they do. Either that, or they're an overconfident arsehole (and still probably not much good).

Cheers,

R.
 
If you don't like having your own picture taken, you can never come to terms with taking others photos. Psychological barrier there, so if you want to do photography dealing with people then get over it.
 
Neare said:
If you don't like having your own picture taken, you can never come to terms with taking others photos. Psychological barrier there, so if you want to do photography dealing with people then get over it.
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Excuse me, but the history of photography is full of photographers who preferred to take pictures rather than have their picture taken, probably most notoriously Cartier-Bresson but I'm sure there are others. Painters don't need to enjoy having their portrait painted to be great portraitists. The idea that to enjoy the active role in image making you must embrace the passive is an assertion you are making which is not supported by history nor by the process of image making itself, as far as I can tell.

Why would liking having my picture taken make me better at taking pictures of others? The world is full of people who like having their picture taken and as far as I can tell, that doesn't mean they're cut out for photography. The claim is illogical, rather naive from a psychological standpoint (sorry) and not borne out by any evidence, furthermore. You may as well say that to be a good hunter you must enjoy being stalked and eaten.

Besides, you have rather missed the point, in any case. I have no problem taking pictures of people, it is rather that I think taking pictures of people without securing their permission and enabling them to participate in control of the distribution of their likeness raises some interesting ethical problems.

J.
 
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So why is "street" photography thought of as intrusive?

What's the point of a social taboo that straps blinders on people as if they were mules plowing a row? :bang:

One of my first memories was being told not to stare
at the fat lady. But why not? As a child, I was amazed and intrigued by differences in people. It wasn't condemnation, it was fascination.
Why was I socially conditioned to pretend to ignore the most important objects in the world around me?
 
dave lackey said:
BTW, Jack, don't let some comments get under your skin. That is just the way forums are.

Feelings about photographing people change over time. For that matter, feelings about PEOPLE change over time. So, just go out and do what you like, don't worry about us.😉

Remember YOU are the most important person to YOU and we will be happy to help where we can if you want us to!:angel:
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Oh, no worries, I've been a moderator and participant on discussion forums for many years, and, as a friend of mine once said I've heard things that would curl Yul Brynner's hair 😉 but I've always felt that if someone feels strongly about their right to be bluntly candid, the least I can do is return the favor 😉 .

J.
 
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