frankeye
Newbie
Hello, everyone. I am happy to be a newly registered member of this excellent forum and would appreciate any help anyone can give.
I have a Bessa II which I believe is the 1956 model, since it accommodates a reducing mask.
The mask itself has the two tabs located on opposite corners. However, the film pressure plate does not seem to have any parts that would correspond to the tabs, nor does it have any scratches or marks on it that could have been caused by the mask's tabs.
Does the Bessa II mask differ from the Bessa I mask? Is it okay to use this mask on the Bessa II?
I have searched for the answer to no avail, and until now have been reluctant to post this question. Any help out there?
Thanks!
I have a Bessa II which I believe is the 1956 model, since it accommodates a reducing mask.
The mask itself has the two tabs located on opposite corners. However, the film pressure plate does not seem to have any parts that would correspond to the tabs, nor does it have any scratches or marks on it that could have been caused by the mask's tabs.
Does the Bessa II mask differ from the Bessa I mask? Is it okay to use this mask on the Bessa II?
I have searched for the answer to no avail, and until now have been reluctant to post this question. Any help out there?
Thanks!
kuzano
Veteran
Never was a 4.5 mask for the Bessa II
Never was a 4.5 mask for the Bessa II
The only two Bessa's that had this Bessa 645 mask were the early Bessa RF and the Bessa I. That mask was the same.
I'm not quite sure how you can say it "accomodates" a reducing mask. I think you just have a reducing mask. The reducing mask with the triangular tabs in two corners uses those two tabs to open the blind to the second window on the back of the camera. So, I would ask if your camera has two back (ruby) windows?
I could be wrong, but I don't recall any Bessa ll having dual format capability. Proof... single window on the back of the camera. With the dual format models the back had two windows and when you installed the mask that little tab you mentioned on corners linked the second window into action. You then stopped the marks at each window... You used 1 twice stopping at each window... 2 twice stopping at each window... etc, until you shot 16 exposures at 645. No midroll change on this. You either had the insert in, or you didn't.
I've never seen a Bessa II with two back windows, and if your's only has one window, that's in keeping with NO dual format, as I believe it is with all Bessa II models.
Now the good news, almost all these masks disappeared from the camera's they came with, The mask you have is probably worth $100 to $150 to someone with an early BESSA RF or a BESSA I.
In all the years I have been playing around with early BESSA RF and BESSA 1 models, I have only seen two of the masks.
If it were me, I would keep it and look for nice BESSA RF with a Heliar lens.
SPECIAL ADDON NOTE:
1) I do now recall that the very early BESSA models also used the same mask as the BESSA RF and the BESSA 1. I remember that one of the two masks I have owned came on a very early BESSA with BraunSchweigh lens.
2) I am looking into this and I do see ONE reference to a dual format capability, but the only physical component I can see is a flip over 645 frame on the front of the viewfinder. This may be a way to place the viewfinder in the center of a 6X9 frame if the camera does not have a dual window back, or some obvious mechanism to change the advance amount of the film otherwise.
Still investigating. This interests me. I would be interested in Two things about your camera. Does the mask have two triangular shaped tabs on alternate corners that point to the film platen when mounted in the camera? Does your back have two ruby windows?
Never was a 4.5 mask for the Bessa II
The only two Bessa's that had this Bessa 645 mask were the early Bessa RF and the Bessa I. That mask was the same.
I'm not quite sure how you can say it "accomodates" a reducing mask. I think you just have a reducing mask. The reducing mask with the triangular tabs in two corners uses those two tabs to open the blind to the second window on the back of the camera. So, I would ask if your camera has two back (ruby) windows?
I could be wrong, but I don't recall any Bessa ll having dual format capability. Proof... single window on the back of the camera. With the dual format models the back had two windows and when you installed the mask that little tab you mentioned on corners linked the second window into action. You then stopped the marks at each window... You used 1 twice stopping at each window... 2 twice stopping at each window... etc, until you shot 16 exposures at 645. No midroll change on this. You either had the insert in, or you didn't.
I've never seen a Bessa II with two back windows, and if your's only has one window, that's in keeping with NO dual format, as I believe it is with all Bessa II models.
Now the good news, almost all these masks disappeared from the camera's they came with, The mask you have is probably worth $100 to $150 to someone with an early BESSA RF or a BESSA I.
In all the years I have been playing around with early BESSA RF and BESSA 1 models, I have only seen two of the masks.
If it were me, I would keep it and look for nice BESSA RF with a Heliar lens.
SPECIAL ADDON NOTE:
1) I do now recall that the very early BESSA models also used the same mask as the BESSA RF and the BESSA 1. I remember that one of the two masks I have owned came on a very early BESSA with BraunSchweigh lens.
2) I am looking into this and I do see ONE reference to a dual format capability, but the only physical component I can see is a flip over 645 frame on the front of the viewfinder. This may be a way to place the viewfinder in the center of a 6X9 frame if the camera does not have a dual window back, or some obvious mechanism to change the advance amount of the film otherwise.
Still investigating. This interests me. I would be interested in Two things about your camera. Does the mask have two triangular shaped tabs on alternate corners that point to the film platen when mounted in the camera? Does your back have two ruby windows?
frankeye
Newbie
Bessa II 4.5x6 mask
First, thanks so much for taking the time to share your thoughts and for taking an interest in this topic.
The reason that I said my Bessa II seems to be the 1956 model is that on certo6's website Jurgen states that the 1956 model was the only Bessa II that had the option of using the 4.5 x 6 mask.
When I mentioned that it accommodates the mask, I meant that the mask physically fits. Sorry about the poor wording.
It has two ruby windows on the back, as well as a flat button which can be turned to open and close the ruby windows. The ruby windows do not open and close independent of one another, they are either both closed or both open.
Here's what is to me the heart of the question. The mask has the 2 tabs as described, but since in this case the windows are opened and closed manually, the tabs serve no purpose that I can think of. Hence my question: Does the Bessa II mask differ from the Bessa I mask? Is it okay to use this mask on the Bessa II?
I am afraid that I still have not made the question clear, but appreciate your patience.
Oops, almost forgot. It has the Heliar, which I love.
Also has the viewfinder that you described.
Also, the mask came with the camera, which I bought on eBay. Or, as they say, I "won" it.
Thanks yet again.
First, thanks so much for taking the time to share your thoughts and for taking an interest in this topic.
The reason that I said my Bessa II seems to be the 1956 model is that on certo6's website Jurgen states that the 1956 model was the only Bessa II that had the option of using the 4.5 x 6 mask.
When I mentioned that it accommodates the mask, I meant that the mask physically fits. Sorry about the poor wording.
It has two ruby windows on the back, as well as a flat button which can be turned to open and close the ruby windows. The ruby windows do not open and close independent of one another, they are either both closed or both open.
Here's what is to me the heart of the question. The mask has the 2 tabs as described, but since in this case the windows are opened and closed manually, the tabs serve no purpose that I can think of. Hence my question: Does the Bessa II mask differ from the Bessa I mask? Is it okay to use this mask on the Bessa II?
I am afraid that I still have not made the question clear, but appreciate your patience.
Oops, almost forgot. It has the Heliar, which I love.
Also has the viewfinder that you described.
Also, the mask came with the camera, which I bought on eBay. Or, as they say, I "won" it.
Thanks yet again.
kuzano
Veteran
WOW.. what a deal you got...
WOW.. what a deal you got...
A heliar, and dual format.
As I investigated your plight, I learned through a couple of references to BESSA II dual format that it did happen (as you knew and I learned) and I think I can explain the distinction.
I suspect that all the masks were the same. In fact, I will bet that your mask will work in all the previous dual format bodies... the very early BESSA, BESSA RF, BESSA I, and your one year BESSA II.
The difference is explained in your reference to how the dual window blinds work. You say the windows do not operate independently of each other. In all the earlier dual format bodies, the window blinds are independent of each other. However, without the mask, on the other bodies, only the 6x9 ruby window blind opens when you turn the rotating blind control button on the back of the camera. Those triangular tabs push a button in the back that link the ruby windows blinds together so they both operate when the mask in in the camera. Therefore, when you turn the knurled button on back, the blinds are linked and both open. Without the mask in the camera, you never see the number in the second window. So you have to remember to wind on past the second ruby window as it can be seen as it passes the RW on it's way to 6X9. Otherwise.. chaos.
No mask, only use the first ruby window. Mask in, use both windows for each number on the film. As you may know, by the alignment of the windows, the numbering is linear, the same line appearing in the two windows.
There was always so much concern about light leaks through the ruby windows, that every effort was made to reduce the amount of exposure to light through the ruby windows. I have always felt that if one was careful, the exposure would only really be an issue with 220 film without the backing paper. However the early cameras were made before 220 came along, I think.
The other approach to getting away from the ruby windows was frame count and stop gearing inside folders. I never found any of the film count/stop mechanism to be other than failure points... That so on a number of Mamiya SIX folders, and Voightlander Perkeo II and CRF models.
So, you do indeed have a unique "critter" and apparently Voigtlander just simplified the linkage on the ruby window blinds. Just wind on aggressively, particularly when you are using 16 count 645 frames, and also remember each number stops at both windows once, or perhaps better said you will appear to shoot each number twice to account for the 645 being half the 6X9 frame.
Good luck. I have purchased from CERTO6, and also had him put new bellows on three of my Mamiya SIX cameras.
WOW.. what a deal you got...
A heliar, and dual format.
As I investigated your plight, I learned through a couple of references to BESSA II dual format that it did happen (as you knew and I learned) and I think I can explain the distinction.
I suspect that all the masks were the same. In fact, I will bet that your mask will work in all the previous dual format bodies... the very early BESSA, BESSA RF, BESSA I, and your one year BESSA II.
The difference is explained in your reference to how the dual window blinds work. You say the windows do not operate independently of each other. In all the earlier dual format bodies, the window blinds are independent of each other. However, without the mask, on the other bodies, only the 6x9 ruby window blind opens when you turn the rotating blind control button on the back of the camera. Those triangular tabs push a button in the back that link the ruby windows blinds together so they both operate when the mask in in the camera. Therefore, when you turn the knurled button on back, the blinds are linked and both open. Without the mask in the camera, you never see the number in the second window. So you have to remember to wind on past the second ruby window as it can be seen as it passes the RW on it's way to 6X9. Otherwise.. chaos.
No mask, only use the first ruby window. Mask in, use both windows for each number on the film. As you may know, by the alignment of the windows, the numbering is linear, the same line appearing in the two windows.
There was always so much concern about light leaks through the ruby windows, that every effort was made to reduce the amount of exposure to light through the ruby windows. I have always felt that if one was careful, the exposure would only really be an issue with 220 film without the backing paper. However the early cameras were made before 220 came along, I think.
The other approach to getting away from the ruby windows was frame count and stop gearing inside folders. I never found any of the film count/stop mechanism to be other than failure points... That so on a number of Mamiya SIX folders, and Voightlander Perkeo II and CRF models.
So, you do indeed have a unique "critter" and apparently Voigtlander just simplified the linkage on the ruby window blinds. Just wind on aggressively, particularly when you are using 16 count 645 frames, and also remember each number stops at both windows once, or perhaps better said you will appear to shoot each number twice to account for the 645 being half the 6X9 frame.
Good luck. I have purchased from CERTO6, and also had him put new bellows on three of my Mamiya SIX cameras.
frankeye
Newbie
Thanks for all the info, kuzano. I have used this camera for quite a while, but never with the mask. Full speed ahead.
Mablo
Well-known
I happen to have an early Bessa with the 6x4.5 reducing mask. When I found the camera and opened it I could find the original manual and the mask from inside the film chamber. The camera is practically unused but I had the shutter cleaned just in case. The back does have two ruby windows and the mask does indeed have 'tabs' as you described. The lens is Voigtländer-Braunschweig Anastigmat Voigtar, 11cm, f/4.5. I shot a test roll and the lens is quite sharp. I don't intend to use the reducing mask but it's nice to know it adds some value to the camera.
jnoir
Well-known
Who will pay 150USD for a mask ? Made out of gold, huh ?
http://www.ebay.es/itm/200810806345
52.95USD, and it has been for sale quite some time.
For the record:
You may notice that the mask of that ebay sale is "plain". The mask for a Bessa I (at least for the one I have in front of me right now) requires a punched hole to accomodate a pin that protudes from the body.
The same mask can be used on any of the two Bessa RF I have in front of me right now, no pin in these.
frankeye
Newbie
I'll locate a flat mask like you described (the one on eBay has been sold).
BTW, Jurgen (certo6) emailed me today to say that he had never actually seen a Bessa II with mask - the production was very limited. Since mine is in great shape and it is apparently very collectible, I'll sell it and get a user Bessa II without the mask option.
Thanks to you and everyone else who helped get to the bottom of this.
BTW, Jurgen (certo6) emailed me today to say that he had never actually seen a Bessa II with mask - the production was very limited. Since mine is in great shape and it is apparently very collectible, I'll sell it and get a user Bessa II without the mask option.
Thanks to you and everyone else who helped get to the bottom of this.
kuzano
Veteran
Sounds like the same Early Early Bessa w/mask
Sounds like the same Early Early Bessa w/mask
On of the early Bessa cameras, that I found with mask... have had 3 masked Bessa cameras... was the same lens you just quoted.
Frankly, I think Voigtlander had some of the best lenses starting from bottom level tripletts up to the Heliars.
The Braunschweig lens you mention was VERY sharp. I had a Bessa RF with the Helomar (not the heliar). Helomar triplett... bottom of the line... Shot great. Very sharp and contrasty images.
Also out of quite a few Voigtlanders, perhaps a dozen, counting Perkeo's, I only ever encountered one bad bellows, or need for patching. The one bad bellows camera had been very severely abused.
OP... probably a good idea on selling the masked camera if you don't plan to use it with the mask. Go for top dollar... who knows what that is, but somewhat over sold BESSA II standard models. If it were me, I would put it on US eBay, but I would also put it on German eBay, unless you don't want to do international.
Be very careful on using the term "collector" quality just because it's a unique model. Real Collectors will "rip you up" if the camera is not 100% plus. I'm not saying don't imply, but I NEVER use the word.... absolutely not. Say unique, say hard to find, say limited production....just don't say Collector. Heartache abounds with that word.
Sounds like the same Early Early Bessa w/mask
On of the early Bessa cameras, that I found with mask... have had 3 masked Bessa cameras... was the same lens you just quoted.
Frankly, I think Voigtlander had some of the best lenses starting from bottom level tripletts up to the Heliars.
The Braunschweig lens you mention was VERY sharp. I had a Bessa RF with the Helomar (not the heliar). Helomar triplett... bottom of the line... Shot great. Very sharp and contrasty images.
Also out of quite a few Voigtlanders, perhaps a dozen, counting Perkeo's, I only ever encountered one bad bellows, or need for patching. The one bad bellows camera had been very severely abused.
OP... probably a good idea on selling the masked camera if you don't plan to use it with the mask. Go for top dollar... who knows what that is, but somewhat over sold BESSA II standard models. If it were me, I would put it on US eBay, but I would also put it on German eBay, unless you don't want to do international.
Be very careful on using the term "collector" quality just because it's a unique model. Real Collectors will "rip you up" if the camera is not 100% plus. I'm not saying don't imply, but I NEVER use the word.... absolutely not. Say unique, say hard to find, say limited production....just don't say Collector. Heartache abounds with that word.