Bessa II Apo-Lanthar or Bessa III?

[matvogel]

Hello,

Is there anybody who uses both cameras The new Bessa III / Fuji GF670 AND the holy grail - the Bessa II with the Apo-Lanthar?

Beside of alll benefits from the modern camera, like the good meter, frame counter, 6x6 and 6x7 format etc. what would you say regarding the optical quality of the two lenses? The Apo-Lanthar is so highly rated - is it worth the price? Or would the gauss design and the modern optical glas of the lens in the Bessa III outperform the APO-Lanthar?

Do you think the high price of the Apo-Lanthar Bessas is just because it is so rare and driven by the collectors?

I'm thinking about buying either the Bessa III or her older cousin.

Best regards
Matthias

 

[rxmd]

Do you think the high price of the Apo-Lanthar Bessas is just because it is so rare and driven by the collectors?

That's it. It's hyped.

If you're into photography instead of collecting, it's very easy - the difference is between a hyped, expensive, collectible 60-year-old design and a modern one with modern coatings. A much better viewfinder, a built-in lightmeter and a warranty do the rest of making this a non-issue.

 

[Roger Hicks]

The old Apo Lanthar is indeed an excellent lens, but put it this way: I replaced my 105 Apo Lathar with a 100 Apo-Symmar because I prefer it (on a 'baby' Linhof). I also have the 150 Apo Lanthar for 4x5 but I don't use it much.

'Over-hyped' is perhaps unfair - it does have a unique look, and 30+ years ago (when I bought mine) they sold more to users than collectors - but 60 years after their introduction it is perhaps not as easy as once it was to see what all the fuss is about.

This was however the first lens where I ever heard the concept of 'bokeh' mentioned, though we didn't use that word in those days (the 1970s). A friend recommended the Apo Lanthar to me on the basis of 'the quality of the out-of-focus image'.

Cheers,

R.

 

[matvogel]

Actually, I already own a Bessa II with the Color Skopar 3.5/105 lens. I like the 6x9 format and used it only to shoot b/w until recently. I tried shooting color slides with it and was surprised that it renders colors better than expected.

But I'm not sure if the Apo-Lanthar is THAT much better in color rendering and its bokeh, worth the extreme price difference.

Probably I willl keep the Bessa II with the Skopar and buy the Bessa III additionally.

 

[rxmd]

'Over-hyped' is perhaps unfair - it does have a unique look, and 30+ years ago (when I bought mine) they sold more to users than collectors - but 60 years after their introduction it is perhaps not as easy as once it was to see what all the fuss is about.

That, and price relations were probably a little bit different, not to mention that the cameras haven't gotten any newer over the last 30 years. Back then when they competed with new Plaubel Makina 67s and the like they may have been a reasonable user option. However, for example there was a discussion here two months ago where a Bessa II with a Lanthar sold for close to $8000 - this seems hard to justify from a user point of view.

In fact, while I'm ready to admit that it may well be me and my limited command of the English language, for a 1950s folder "over-hyped" is the only word I can think of to describe this kind of price.

 

[Roger Hicks]

That, and price relations were probably a little bit different, not to mention that the cameras haven't gotten any newer over the last 30 years. Back then when they competed with new Plaubel Makina 67s and the like they may have been a reasonable user option. However, for example there was a discussion here two months ago where a Bessa II with a Lanthar sold for close to $8000 - this seems hard to justify from a user point of view.

In fact, while I'm ready to admit that it may well be me and my limited command of the English language, for a 1950s folder "over-hyped" is the only word I can think of to describe this kind of price.

Can't really argue too much. I was thinking more of the lens than the camera, but $8000 certainly puts it far more in the realm of the collectable than the usable.

At that point, though, is it really hyped at all? Or is it merely fantastically rare? Is a Blue Mauritius postage stamp hyped? I mean, its usefulness is a good deal less than that of the Apo Lanthar on a Voigtländer.

We are however in complete agreement that it's hard to justify that sort of money in terms of photographic potential.

Cheers,

R.

 

[rxmd]

At that point, though, is it really hyped at all? Or is it merely fantastically rare? Is a Blue Mauritius postage stamp hyped? I mean, its usefulness is a good deal less than that of the Apo Lanthar on a Voigtländer.

This is an interesting question. (In the words of Harry Frankfurt: "In consequence, we have no clear understanding of what hype is, why there is so much of it, or what functions it serves. And we lack a conscientiously developed appreciation of what it means to us. In other words, we have no theory.")

So let us assume that collector prices emerge through a process involving demand and supply. Supply, as it were, is relatively fixed and determined by scarcity. Therefore, prices are largely determined by demand. We can then say that items are hyped when the collector community attaches a particular symbolic value to them (through repeated mentionings, use as textbook examples, prominent or infamous owners etc.). This may be of short or long duration and has a direct influence on prices.

So, in your example, the Mauritius could probably be called hyped, because every text on philately uses it as an example, while other, similarly rare stamps would not command as high a value simply because they are much less iconic. The Bessa II with the Apo-Lanthar is probably hyped, too (looking at price fluctuations or comparing its prices to similarly rare or rarer photographic products) by virtue of being mentioned as the epitome of folder design, by being discussed as a highly desirable gem of a lens, etc. in this case, the fact that you can actually use it paradoxically contributes to the hype, because occasionally you do get users posting an image taken with one, leading to a flurry of other users getting GAS attacks.

This is of course not the most rigorous understanding of hype; I guess one could try to be more academic about it (looking at price fluctuations over time to define a minimum divergence, or trying to quantify the various possible uses of an item and the impact they have on its collector value) but this is left as an exercise or as a possible M.Sc. thesis for an interested reader