joeswe
Well-known
For those of you that own this combo and shoot with it, how do you like the Color-Heliar? I did some research about this combo on the web and it seems that the crowd is very much split over its optical qualities, and I am not sure what to make of it. Some say the Bessa II w/ Color-Heliar is a disappointment, inferior to the Color-Skopar even after proper adjustments/calibration, some say it's a lens that gives good results, but is tricky to use, others say it's plenty sharp or even the best lens available on a 6x9 folder (apart from the mystic Apo-Lanthar, of course).
I am asking because I have been offered a Bessa II with a Color-Heliar locally and I am going to have a close look at it the day after tomorrow. I read about the pitfalls of the Bessa II so I will check carefully before buying it. What I am concerned about right now is the real world quality of the Color-Heliar. I like the quality of build and finish on the Bessa compared to my Record iii with Solinar (which is quite sharp), but I wouldn't want to trade the good looks for inferior
optics...
John
I am asking because I have been offered a Bessa II with a Color-Heliar locally and I am going to have a close look at it the day after tomorrow. I read about the pitfalls of the Bessa II so I will check carefully before buying it. What I am concerned about right now is the real world quality of the Color-Heliar. I like the quality of build and finish on the Bessa compared to my Record iii with Solinar (which is quite sharp), but I wouldn't want to trade the good looks for inferior
optics...
John
joeswe
Well-known
I went to check out the Bessa II today. It's in very nice condition, only the slow shutter speeds are sticky (no big deal) and there was tiny bit of fungus on the front element (stored away for decades in a leather case...) and maybe also between the elements, it was hard to see. Price quote is around 500 EUR (maybe I can get another 50 EUR or so knocked off). I will have to have the glass cleaned (I will not mess around with that pricey Heliar lens myself). Do you think that is a fair price, considering the Fungus problem? I am bit worried about resale value in case it does not clean well. BTW, I shot a test roll and I am really curious to see the results...
Vickko
Veteran
Fungus is never a good idea. I'd let it go.
I have a Bessa II with Color-Heliar. It must be a good one, because photos from it are absolutely stunning.
I"ve gone on trips with it as my only camera, and it is completely reliable and a joy to use.
Vick
I have a Bessa II with Color-Heliar. It must be a good one, because photos from it are absolutely stunning.
I"ve gone on trips with it as my only camera, and it is completely reliable and a joy to use.
Vick
f16sunshine
Moderator
I've had both skopar and now have heliar . Both are very sharp. The he liar has better borders and nicer oof area. The Skopar can be a bit swirly at wide open. The price you are offered is good but not fantastic. If you can negotiate the cost of a Shutter overhaul it would be of benefit and secure your opportunity to recover cost should you not like it. Which shutter does the camera have? Later versions came with a Syncro-Compur earlier came with Rapid-Compur. I prefer the chance to use it with flash even if I seldom do. The Synchro is for that reason more desirable and has higher value.
jnoir
Well-known
All I can say is that I wouldn't part with mine for 500 Euro.
Try to get it as cheap as possible, have it cleaned and adjusted (RF misalignment is also a common fault, but one easy to solve), and after the first couple of rolls the idea of selling it will never cross your mind again
Tipically, fungus affects the coatings most, unless they've been there for ages and started to "corrode" the glass. Since that Heliar lens is uncoated, if I were on your shoes I'd take the risk and buy it. But, that's not an advice or a recommendation, just what I'd do. Take it with a pinch of salt, but having local access to check the camera is always best to judge properly.
Try to get it as cheap as possible, have it cleaned and adjusted (RF misalignment is also a common fault, but one easy to solve), and after the first couple of rolls the idea of selling it will never cross your mind again
Tipically, fungus affects the coatings most, unless they've been there for ages and started to "corrode" the glass. Since that Heliar lens is uncoated, if I were on your shoes I'd take the risk and buy it. But, that's not an advice or a recommendation, just what I'd do. Take it with a pinch of salt, but having local access to check the camera is always best to judge properly.
kuzano
Veteran
For me the decision is based on the marketplace!!
For me the decision is based on the marketplace!!
Looking at completed listings, recently two Heliar fitted Bessa II's sold for $1077 and $1300, on US ebay. Your offered price converted to US Dollars is $660.
Looking at Color Skopars, three sold in the same period from $242, up to $1000.
Regardless what IQ difference there may be (and I suspect it's marginal), the market place perceives the Heliar to be better and is willing to pay more for it.
Personally, I buy and resell cameras, and have been watching the Bessa II's for a long time. The Heliars consistently sell for 25 to 30% more than Color Skopars.
I doubt that more than a handful of people own both and really make quality comparisons that would favor one much over the other. In my case, the marketplace tells me which one to buy. If I had a decent shot at a good looking, functioning Bessa II Heliar, I'd be all over it, whereas I'd likely pass on the Color Skopar.
Just a slightly different point of view. If you don't like it would you like your money back?
It may also depend on another persons perspective. If someone were moving up from a Holga to a Color Skopar or Heliar Bessa, they would first faint, and then tell the world how awesome their new camera is, aside from whether it was the CS or Heliar.
You are also dealing in an era of lens MFR when anomolies in lens glass and assembly could give you a poor CS or Heliar out of ten manufactured.
So again, the market is saying this camera will, at the very least, allow you to recoup the price spent. I doubt, given the same purchase price, the Color Skopar would be as safe a bet.
For me the decision is based on the marketplace!!
Looking at completed listings, recently two Heliar fitted Bessa II's sold for $1077 and $1300, on US ebay. Your offered price converted to US Dollars is $660.
Looking at Color Skopars, three sold in the same period from $242, up to $1000.
Regardless what IQ difference there may be (and I suspect it's marginal), the market place perceives the Heliar to be better and is willing to pay more for it.
Personally, I buy and resell cameras, and have been watching the Bessa II's for a long time. The Heliars consistently sell for 25 to 30% more than Color Skopars.
I doubt that more than a handful of people own both and really make quality comparisons that would favor one much over the other. In my case, the marketplace tells me which one to buy. If I had a decent shot at a good looking, functioning Bessa II Heliar, I'd be all over it, whereas I'd likely pass on the Color Skopar.
Just a slightly different point of view. If you don't like it would you like your money back?
It may also depend on another persons perspective. If someone were moving up from a Holga to a Color Skopar or Heliar Bessa, they would first faint, and then tell the world how awesome their new camera is, aside from whether it was the CS or Heliar.
You are also dealing in an era of lens MFR when anomolies in lens glass and assembly could give you a poor CS or Heliar out of ten manufactured.
So again, the market is saying this camera will, at the very least, allow you to recoup the price spent. I doubt, given the same purchase price, the Color Skopar would be as safe a bet.
joeswe
Well-known
Thanks everybody for your input. The test film turned out okay, so I bought the Bessa II today. Could get down the price a bit to 450 EUR. Next I will have the lens cleaned and the shutter overhauled. I will keep you updated and post some pics in due course.
John
John
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Wow those has really gone up in value.
I was *very* happy with mine (not the II version, but with Heliar lens).
Those 6x9 slides are just gorgeous.
I was *very* happy with mine (not the II version, but with Heliar lens).
Those 6x9 slides are just gorgeous.
joeswe
Well-known
This is an update, after I had purchased the Bessa in February I had to sort out some problems with the beauty. Luckily, the fungus was only on the outer surfaces of the lens and cleaned away nicely. But I found out that the rangefinder was a bit off and also collimation was off so much that it was showing in the pictures even when stopped down. I was pondering to have it serviced but had some difficulties finding someone who was willing to work on the Bessa II here in Germany (!!). In the end I decided to tackle the problems myself. The rangefinder adjustment is relatively easy to do (just lift off the top plate and there are two screws for vertical and horizontal alignment) and after some reading on the web I also figured out an relatively easy way of adjusting infinity focus. I am still waiting for the test film to be developed to pass final judgement, but for the moment I am a happy Bessa ii owner
BTW, For those of you who are interested in some in-depth information on the Bessa ii series and understand Italian (or don't mind reading Google "translations"), I found an very interesting article written by Gino Ferzetti here. It also sheds some light on the optical properties of the Heliar (and also changes to the lens during production history of the Bessa II) which might explain why the crowd seems to be so split over its qualities, or lack thereof, which somehow answers my original question.
bessa_ii von eames68 auf Flickr
BTW, For those of you who are interested in some in-depth information on the Bessa ii series and understand Italian (or don't mind reading Google "translations"), I found an very interesting article written by Gino Ferzetti here. It also sheds some light on the optical properties of the Heliar (and also changes to the lens during production history of the Bessa II) which might explain why the crowd seems to be so split over its qualities, or lack thereof, which somehow answers my original question.
bessa_ii von eames68 auf Flickr
joeswe
Well-known
So, the first test roll after calibration is developed and everything looks good. I especially like the quality of the lens in the close range. This is where my Record iii with the Solinar has it's weak spot. Framing is a bit difficult in the close range of course, because the finder is tiny (besides being not very precise in the first place) and there is no parallax correction, so you have to guess. I have 6x9 Kontur finder, that I use a lot with my Record iii, but the Bessa II lacks the accessory shoe. I will have to keep my eyes open for one of the clip on accessory shoes for the Bessa (unfortunately hard to come by and quite expensive, I think).
Happy shooting!
Bessa II Color-Heliar von eames68 auf Flickr
Bessa II Color-Heliar von eames68 auf Flickr
Happy shooting!
Bessa II Color-Heliar von eames68 auf Flickr
Bessa II Color-Heliar von eames68 auf Flickr
cicala
Established
Very nice color , I'm waiting for my new bessa color heliar arriving next week , hope everything works propely .....
znapper
Well-known
Old thread, but what the heck
I love mine, I have a Bessa II with the color Heliar and I really havent tried color-film on it before now.
Works very well and it's sharp too ^^
This is F4 (wide open is F3.5), Fujipro 160NS @ 100
I love mine, I have a Bessa II with the color Heliar and I really havent tried color-film on it before now.
Works very well and it's sharp too ^^
This is F4 (wide open is F3.5), Fujipro 160NS @ 100
mfogiel
Veteran
The contrast is low, but the bokeh is certainly pretty...
Robert Lai
Well-known
COLOR Heliars are single coated. Mine is from about 1946-7 (immediate post war), and it must have been one of the first of these coated lenses, as it is mounted on the older style Bessa RF body. I bought it from a fellow RFFer who lives in Belgium. Very minty looking, and it even came with the 6 x 4.5 mask!
Gus Lazzari overhauled mine. This is a high resolving lens. When shot wide open, the lens is a bit low in contrast. Stop it down, and it is as good as anything. If you know the character of the collapsible 50mm Summicron, then you'll have an idea of the imaging characteristics. Yes, I know that the Heliar has 5 elements, and the Summicron has 6, but you get the general idea.
Gus Lazzari overhauled mine. This is a high resolving lens. When shot wide open, the lens is a bit low in contrast. Stop it down, and it is as good as anything. If you know the character of the collapsible 50mm Summicron, then you'll have an idea of the imaging characteristics. Yes, I know that the Heliar has 5 elements, and the Summicron has 6, but you get the general idea.
znapper
Well-known
This may be related to scanning, as I normally scan my shots pretty low contrast, for maximum shadow detail.
The film is also shot at EI 100, as supposed to EI 160, so that may contribute somewhat to the lower contrast as well.
All in all, I am very satisfies with my Bessa II, I normally never wind the film until I am about to take a photo, to make sure the film is as straight and tight as possible, seems to work ^^