Best RF for street photography

[javabean]

Hello all,

what would be the best available 35mm RF cameras for doing street photohraphy ?

my requirements would be :

- silent shutter operation
- Leica M lense mount
- about 1000 euro in price including lens (maybe 2nd hand body and lens)
- preferrably small, dark body

Cheers,

javabean.

 

[dcsang]

Welcome to RFF

"Best" is a very subjective term since what may be best for you might not be best for someone else, however, there are a few rangefinders that could suit your needs:
Any used Leica M
A new Zeiss Ikon
A new (or a couple) Bessa R2/R3As

The differences between them are varied - older Leica M bodies have no meter but you cannot beat the shutter sound. You could likely get an M3 with a decent lens to start out for 1000 Euro. Dark bodies (i.e. black) would come at a premium though (if at all).

I can't speak to the shutter sound on the Zeiss Ikon but brand new (it would be hard to get a used one since it is just out on the market) you may not have enough funds left over for a lens.

The Bessas, while the shutter is not as quiet as the Leicas, are decent cameras. Not as "hefty" as the Leicas but definitely a decent cam and priced right too. The 1:1 finder on the R3A is bright and a joy to use. You get really accustomed to shooting with both eyes wide open New bodies go for about $550 USD and a new lens for either would be about $400 USD so you'll be within your budget too.

Cheers and again, welcome,
Dave

 

[bmattock]

Have you examined your needs? Who says you have to change lenses when shooting street? Many people simply stick one lens on - typically a 35 or a 50, and leave it. When you drop the M-mount requirement, the whole world opens up in terms of quantity and quality and meeting your other needs. For example - a fixed-lens leaf-shuttered camera will have a quieter shutter than just about any focal-plane shutter ever made. A Hexar AF, for example - none quieter, as far as I know:

http://www.cameraquest.com/konhex.htm

Or a Ricoh GR1V as another example.

However, if you MUST have removeable lenses - Leica M-3 and up, but you'll have to find one in your price range that is also in good shape; Minolta CL/CLE, harder to find in good shape; Konica Hexar RF, a good M-Mount camera; Cosina-Voigtlander Bessa R2 and up, the Rollei 35RF, a Bessa in Rollei drag; and the Zeiss Ikon, which is also apparently made by Cosina. Contax G1/G2 if you like AF with your removeable lenses.

Which is 'best'? That's like saying "what's the best camera?' Everybody has their own needs and tastes. If you can be more specific about what you think you'll be doing, you might get more narrowly specified answers.

And welcome to RFF, by the way!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[javabean]

Thanks for your replies and welcoming me to the forum

'Best' is quite subjective, but a bit less when I specify the requirements i have (i hope). Ill take a look a those cameras you mention.

Maybe i should rethink my changeable-lenses requirement indeed. Its not a hard requirment as i thought at first.

I also saw the Rollei 35 RF + lense for new for about 1000 dollar. Do you know what the shutter sound is like of that camera ?


Cheers,

javabean.

 

[kanoot]

Let me state up front that I don't want this to sound confrontational because its not my intention... however, for years now I have been watching this term "street photography" thrown around and I still don't get it. If you are referring to the crooked, candid shots that appear on that popular mailing list I suppose any camera that is handheld would do just fine. If you are trying to capture something more concrete I would love to hear what it is and how you define it. If you simply plan to walk a street and shoot what you see (which is what we do anywhere) then I think you need to bring some of your other needs into play.

For what its worth, without exception my favorite photography is accomplished by photogs who put on a wide angle lens, move in close, and get involved in the situation they are shooting. It is amazing how "candid" people are even when they know a camera is in their face. Get involved, be a part of the shot you are taking. Taking sneaky candids is something anyone can do.

Thanks for indulging my rants

 

[bmattock]

Taking sneaky candids is something anyone can do.

Sez you.

Thanks for indulging my rants

You're welcome. You're wrong as well, but oh well; your mind is made up.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[ray_g]

I agree, "best" is very personal. What equipment do you use now, and what is it that you are looking to change?

 

[kanoot]

Sez you.



You're welcome. You're wrong as well, but oh well; your mind is made up.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

OK Bill, I tried to state my opinion without any confrontation - sorry it couldn't be done, I'll make sure to never be wrong again.

 

[RML]

Thanks for your replies and welcoming me to the forum

'Best' is quite subjective, but a bit less when I specify the requirements i have (i hope). Ill take a look a those cameras you mention.

Maybe i should rethink my changeable-lenses requirement indeed. Its not a hard requirment as i thought at first.

Javabean, what is your previous experience with a rangefinder camera? If you have none, are you sure you want to spend $1000 on a camera that might not suit you? If you have no previous experience, I would take Bill's advice and start off with a much cheaper rf camera.

I personally would go for a (2nd hand?) Bessa R2 with a (2nd hand?) 35 or 50mm lens.

I have a Leica M2 and still don't like that it doesn't have an internal light meter. The M2 isn't really quiet but the click of the shutter draws no attention. The vlack of the Bessa is slightly louder and draws a bit more attention but I shot the camera regularly in any kind of place without people paying attention to it. IMO the shutter sound requirement is often just a luxury requirement. IMO, only when the camera needs to be absolutely silent, it's an imperative requirement. And then the Leica will often still not suffice.

 

[bmattock]

I also saw the Rollei 35 RF + lense for new for about 1000 dollar. Do you know what the shutter sound is like of that camera ?

I've never fondled the Rollei - but keep in mind that it is the Bessa with a different label. I am going to guess that you can get the Bessa R2/R3, etc, a bit cheaper. Shutter should sound the same - same camera.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[dostacos]

Hello all,

what would be the best available 35mm RF cameras for doing street photohraphy ?

my requirements would be :

- silent shutter operation
- Leica M lense mount
- about 1000 euro in price including lens (maybe 2nd hand body and lens)
- preferrably small, dark body

Cheers,

javabean.

the best is the RF camera you HAVE!


I would go with the Bessa R2 [all mechanical M mount ] with a voightlander 28MM f1.9 [plos adapter] this kit will be close to the $1000. This body will use both the screw mount and bayonet mount lenses. On the other hand I don't have a Leica so I have no Idea what they would be like

Where are you located? If you are in the Los Angeles aera I wouold be willing to let you play with one of my bessa Rs [screw mount only] to get an idea of the loudness of the Bessas

 

[javabean]

By street photography, i mean taking shots from city scenes, like Bresson and Doisneau did. Mostly with people in it, sometimes not.

I currently have a Canon EOS 3 with some prime lenses, which makes a lot of noise and is much too big and therefore distorts the scene i want to take a picture of/in. I dont have experience with an RF, but want one because of the lower shutter noise.

I also have 2 Praktica reflex bodies, but again, those make too much noise. Also, you cant see whats happening during the taking of the picutre, because the mirror blocks the view. Someone suggested a Canon EOS RT for that, a reflex camera with a mirror that doesnt flip, but one which is semi-transparent. Anyone know how quiet it is ?

The Rollei 35 RF is a makeover of the Bessa, with a lot of parts of metal instead of of plastic; so the shutter sound may have changed.

By the way, i live in the Netherlands.


Cheers,

javabean.

 

[bmattock]

OK Bill, I tried to state my opinion without any confrontation - sorry it couldn't be done, I'll make sure to never be wrong again.

I'm looking for the 'non-confrontation' part:

If you are referring to the crooked, candid shots that appear on that popular mailing list I suppose any camera that is handheld would do just fine.

Ah, so I take 'crooked' shots, do I? Yes, hardly confrontational. Why you may as well call me a bank robber too - I'd hard take offense to that either.

It is amazing how "candid" people are even when they know a camera is in their face.

This is the part where you're wrong ^^^ but again, your mind is made up. Kinda like those folks who think that they'll get the same shots if they ask permission to take a photo.

Get involved, be a part of the shot you are taking. Taking sneaky candids is something anyone can do.

Oh, and not only am I crooked, I'm also sneaky. Ah, and 'anyone can do it'.

Thanks for indulging my rants

Sorry, bub. You can't say "You suck" and then say "No offense intended" and expect it to work. And playing the wounded innocent hardly impresses me. If you want to hurl invective, bring it - I'm a big boy. But let's not play me as the bad guy, you threw the spitballs and then cried foul.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[kanoot]

By street photography, i mean taking shots from city scenes, like Bresson and Doisneau did. Mostly with people in it, sometimes not.

Right, and this is where I draw some confusion and found the need to ask for more description and detail. I think any camera can take 'shots from city scenes' - and I wish a camera could make me shoot like Bresson! But, for instance, when you say that a quiet shutter is needed that makes me think of very quiet situations and I wonder if that really is a major requirement for a busy street. In my town its not very busy at all but there is enough noise that I don't think a quiet leica shutter is needed for the situation.

So what I think you are looking for is "stealth" in size and function - but I wonder if you need that (and perhaps you do need it, and its is perfectly wonderful to want it! I just dont know).

Keeping in mind what others have said about the cameras I suppose the next step is to look at the lenses - as I said before, I prefer wide-angle shots (25 to 35) and up-close and personal. You may not prefer that but if you find the lens you want it might make a difference for the camera. (If you choose something like the CV 25 it really doesnt matter much what camera is under it since its not rangefinder coupled and comes with a viewfinder.)

If the question is which RF to get as a first RF I would second (or is that third or fourth) the CV Bessa vote - any of them really. They are solid cameras, great performers and classic in design and usage. Their size is nearly perfect and very 'stealth-like'. My only complaint is that they seem a bit light-weight but that is just something I consider.


P.S., I had no intention to turn you thread into a flame-war, I really wanted to know more.

 

[Marko]

Hey javabean,

test a Olympus 35 SP, these Olympus can set aperture and shutterspeed automaticly. Also take a look on the very, very small rangefinder Olympus XA in all his variantes. The XA looks like a very small compact camera but its one of the smallest rangefinder ever build. Underwritten inconspicuously

I personaly use a Voigtländer Bessa R3a with a Nokton 40mm f/1.4 and a Yashica Lynx 14. This cameras are bigger then the two Olympus, but its a big fun for me to using this cameras.

 

[RML]

By street photography, i mean taking shots from city scenes, like Bresson and Doisneau did. Mostly with people in it, sometimes not.

OK. That's at least one definition.

I currently have a Canon EOS 3 with some prime lenses, which makes a lot of noise and is much too big and therefore distorts the scene i want to take a picture of/in. I dont have experience with an RF, but want one because of the lower shutter noise.

My Eos 300D and 3000 both probably make less noise than my Bessas.

I also have 2 Praktica reflex bodies, but again, those make too much noise. Also, you cant see whats happening during the taking of the picutre, because the mirror blocks the view. Someone suggested a Canon EOS RT for that, a reflex camera with a mirror that doesnt flip, but one which is semi-transparent. Anyone know how quiet it is ?

No offense meant but I really think you're a bit obsessed with shutter noise, or the lack of it. People have been shooting in crowds and in the street for decades and often with cameras that made cluncking loud shutter noises and the whine of motor drives. Unless your camera makes a sound like a trash can full of empty coke cans falling from the third floor onto a sheet of corrugated iron, I think most cameras will be perfectly adequate for what you want. Weight, size and blockage of the viewfinder are IMO good and valid reasons to choose an rf camera. The assumed lack of shutter noise is not.

By the way, i live in the Netherlands.

So do I. In Amsterdam. If you care we can meet some day.

 

[ClaremontPhoto]

Usually I use a Voigtlander Bessa R3A, but when I want really quiet I pick up my Leica Minilux.

A leaf shutter is always going to be quieter than a focal plane shutter.

But having said that people do not notice the Bessa most of the time.

 

[javabean]

Unless your camera makes a sound like a trash can full of empty coke cans falling from the third floor onto a sheet of corrugated iron yeah, with a 30-player drumband playing on the sheet too

Well, ive taken quite some shots on the street, and see that more often than i want, my camera gets noticed - just after i pressed the shutter. But maybe i am mistaken here. The size of the black EOS 3 maybe also comes into play.

Stealth is a good word to describe it. Although manual focus often comes with the RF, and is not so stealthy.

I just found a website that has a few RF camera listed with the sounds of the shutter as a WAV file : http://www.lumieresenboite.com/collection_categorie.php?categorie_link=2&l=2

RML, i work in Amsterdam, maybe we can meet there ?

Cheers,

javabean.

 

[ray_g]

Javabean, thanks for the clarification. The praktica shutter certainly is loud, and the EOS 3 is quite a big camera. Not that they cannot be used for street photography, but I find that more than the shutter noise, it is more the size and appearance of the camera that makes it less unobtrusive. Most people, with no knowledge of cameras, will take the EOS 3 or any modern SLR at that, as a pro camera, especially if you have a big, fast zoom on it. That is what makes them more self-conscious, and often, unwilling to have their photo taken.

As others suggested, an inexpensive RF with either fixed-lens (like the canon GIII) or interchangeable lenses is one way to start, "upgrading" if you like the RF method and according to what you discover your needs to be. If you have the budget, it would not be wrong to start off with a Leica, as you can probably sell it for the same price a year later if you find RF photography is not for you. M mount Bessas and Rolleis, while less expensive, will still require a considerable investment, and will hold their value less.

 

[back alley]

didn't doisneau use a large format camera on a tripod?

you guys are way over thinking this.

an oly 35 rc to nikon f6 would work, i would thinnk.
get something you are physically comfortable with and the rest will follow.

it's more about attitude than equipment.

joe