Best tele focusing: Bessa R, Konica Hexar or Minolta CLE?

[wew82]

Hey,

Just following on from a recent thread I made with regards to advice on buying my first Rangefinder camera & an 90 or 135mm set up.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153240

Although the overwhelming advice was largely against working with these kind of focal lengths and sticking to wider angles, I am still determined to find a camera that will at least provide satisfactory results at 90mm.

Being able to use M mount lenses definitely has significant appeal (as does being able to shoot aperture priority), and having done a little research the Bessa R (probably the 3A due to its 1:1 viewfinder), the Minolta CLE and the Konica Hexar RF all offer this capability at fairly reasonable prices.

I'm just curious if anyone has experience working with these 3 cameras using 90mm lenses, and how easy it was to achieve satisfactory focus/composition using the cameras viewfinders, or, better still, if anyone is able to advise which of these 3 cameras might be best suited for what I'm looking for.

The lenses I am currently considering are the 90mm f2.8 Tele-Elmarit M lens and the f4 90mm Elmar C, with my primary intended use being shooting people.

Also without wishing to retread the ground of my old thread if there is a system that would offer better results with 90mm lenses It'd be great to hear about them.

 

[Huss]

I have the CLE and Bessa R3A, and the Bessa is much better for long lenses as it has a higher magnification VF. FYI this only applies to the Bessa R3A and R3M, as those are the only two with 1:1 magnification finders.

 

[gwg]

I use the Hexar RF with a 1.25x magnifier on the eyepiece (same model you use for Leica Ms) - works wonderfully and very accurate for my Elmarit-M 90 2.8 even wide open. Haven't tried it with my Leica CL (not sure if the viewfinder is identical to the CLE) but I would think the low magnification makes it less accurate.

 

[rhl-oregon]

Good luck finding someone who can compare all three. I can't; but the CL/CLE were *made* for 40/90, so if your vision is decent, 90 should be fine. I have no problem with 90 on the CL,

I see 3 other considerations or further questions based on AE, long lenses and street/people being priorized.

1/Winding/focusing is a two handed skill (leaving aside prefocus/zone focus).
Now add moving subjects! If you really want to work on the Zen of two hands two eyes operating in 3 or 4 ways, great. If not, the Hexar removes one extra step, chore, distraction.

2/how far away will your people/subjects generally be?
The farther away, the more the difference RF base can make. CLE and Bessas have shortbases, Hexar matches the Ms. This advantage might be offset by a 1:1 finder, but I have no Bessa experience to speak of. If you're not sniping but shooting fairly close with 90/135, that may make it moot as well.

3/Where do you like to be on the aperture spectrum?
F8 and be there? wide open for subject isolation? 90 and 135

Other considerations will follow from these. I imagine any advice you get will improve in relation to how clearly you can summarize your shooting habits or desires. Even posting your best examples or favorite exemplars could help advance the conversation.

 

[ferider]

Although the overwhelming advice was largely against working with these kind of focal lengths and sticking to wider angles, I am still determined to find a camera that will at least provide satisfactory results at 90mm.

I go counter stream here: 90mm lenses are very usable on a rangefinder, and have been used on rangefinders a lot historically.

Keeping in mind your budget of 500 Pds total:

- I haven't used the Hexar RF, but would be surprised if you can buy it with at least two decent lenses within your budget.

- The CLE was basically unusable for me with a 90, since the framelines are tiny and corners only.

- The Bessa R was ok with a slow 90, and good with the 75/2.5.

The best RF for short teles are cameras with 1:1 (or close to) finders, Leica M3, Canon P and Bessa R3* (there are others, but these are what I used), for instance.

The only camera that I found useful with (Un-googled) 135 has been the M3. BTW, a grip will move the M3 tripod socket into the middle.

However, given your budget, I recommend to get a Bessa R with 75/2.5 or a Canon P with Nikkor 105/2.5 or Canon 100/3.5.

Roland.

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

As I've said before I've used a 90 on the CL for decades and it's a mechanical version of the CLE with the same RF set up, as far as I know.

But the CLE is all-electronic and from what I have heard I would be wary of all-electronic cameras. Perhaps some research, like telephoning repairers to see it they can deal with them is needed.

Regards, David

 

[k__43]

I had the old long V1 Elmarit (non tele-) and the Elmar-C 90/4 and I'd advice the later for contrast and size while the elmarit isn't bad per se.
Other Elmarits might be out of your budget.
So an M2 with 90/4 should be in your reach. Focus should be fine .. after all that lens went with the CL you know 😀

 

[Lucadomi]

85mm canon ltm lens worked very well on Bessa R2 in my experience. The R2 allows me to use 35mm and 85mm lenses without issues.
The CLE and the Hexar are better for wide lenses, I think.

 

[anerjee]

I'd suggest the Zeiss Ikon. It has 85mm frame lines, which are almost identical to the 90mm Leica framelines.

Hey,

Just following on from a recent thread I made with regards to advice on buying my first Rangefinder camera & an 90 or 135mm set up.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153240

Although the overwhelming advice was largely against working with these kind of focal lengths and sticking to wider angles, I am still determined to find a camera that will at least provide satisfactory results at 90mm.

Being able to use M mount lenses definitely has significant appeal (as does being able to shoot aperture priority), and having done a little research the Bessa R (probably the 3A due to its 1:1 viewfinder), the Minolta CLE and the Konica Hexar RF all offer this capability at fairly reasonable prices.

I'm just curious if anyone has experience working with these 3 cameras using 90mm lenses, and how easy it was to achieve satisfactory focus/composition using the cameras viewfinders, or, better still, if anyone is able to advise which of these 3 cameras might be best suited for what I'm looking for.

The lenses I am currently considering are the 90mm f2.8 Tele-Elmarit M lens and the f4 90mm Elmar C, with my primary intended use being shooting people.

Also without wishing to retread the ground of my old thread if there is a system that would offer better results with 90mm lenses It'd be great to hear about them.

 

[Addy101]

You ask for the best tele focussing with a rangefinder, well, you'll want the longest effective base length (EBL) for your focussing. Our owner put the EBL on a list for most rangefinders. The Voigtländer Bessa R3A and R3B are missing, but using the formula means the EBL is 37, giving it 59.3%. It seems the Leica M3 has the best EBL and a good magnification. It should be your first choice IMHO.

I would skip the CLE. The other two, well, the Hexar has a slightly better EBL, the Bessa R3A a 1:1 finder - guess that's a toss up.

 

[gb hill]

Hey,

Just following on from a recent thread I made with regards to advice on buying my first Rangefinder camera & an 90 or 135mm set up.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153240

Although the overwhelming advice was largely against working with these kind of focal lengths and sticking to wider angles, I am still determined to find a camera that will at least provide satisfactory results at 90mm.

Being able to use M mount lenses definitely has significant appeal (as does being able to shoot aperture priority), and having done a little research the Bessa R (probably the 3A due to its 1:1 viewfinder), the Minolta CLE and the Konica Hexar RF all offer this capability at fairly reasonable prices.

Just remember the Bessa R is a screwmount. R2's & above are your M mount camera's. Bessa's have a short base length but if Roland says a 90 will focus then I trust his expertise. I screwed my Canon 135 on one time & it was a no go. I'd love to have a CV75/2.5 for mine. Great lens.

 

[Huss]

Hi,

As I've said before I've used a 90 on the CL for decades and it's a mechanical version of the CLE with the same RF set up, as far as I know.

The CLE has a different, more accurate RF than the CL. It was meant to be the next Leica CL but Leica dropped those plans as it was stealing M sales.

Anyway, here it is, #10 on the list of best RF's, while the CL is #15:

https://www.cameraquest.com/leica.htm

 

[hlockwood]

I use the Hexar RF with a 1.25x magnifier on the eyepiece (same model you use for Leica Ms) - works wonderfully and very accurate for my Elmarit-M 90 2.8 even wide open. Haven't tried it with my Leica CL (not sure if the viewfinder is identical to the CLE) but I would think the low magnification makes it less accurate.

I have both the Hexar RF and Leica M7, 0.85 VF. The Leica 1.25 magnifier brings the M7 VF up to 1.06, very handy for focussing with longer lenses. But I've shot the M7 easily with the 90mm 'cron without the magnifier. No experience with 135mm. And it should be noted that the Leica magnifier doesn't fit the Hexar RF.

HFL

 

[ferider]

Huss, I know you love your CLE. And it's indeed a cool camera with fast 40 or 28.

But sorry: EBL is only one side of the story, the CLE 90mm framelines are very poor - to the point of being un-usable - compared to the nice stand-alone Bessa {R,R2*,R3*} 75mm, the M2/M3 90mm, or the Canon P 100mm frame-lines.

Just remember the Bessa R is a screwmount. R2's & above are your M mount camera's. Bessa's have a short base length but if Roland says a 90 will focus then I trust his expertise. I screwed my Canon 135 on one time & it was a no go. I'd love to have a CV75/2.5 for mine. Great lens.

With a slow 90, the R and R2 should be OK, GB. Like the CV 90/3.5 that was made for the Bessa R.

For more details on the focus ability of different RF cameras and lenses, see the chart that LCT and I once made:

You see focal length in column B8:34, and max. aperture in column C8:34.

Roland.

 

[presspass]

I have, and have shot, a ZI with 90s and 135s, using a Leica auxiliary finder. Both work well. I have also shot those lenses with a Bessa R2 with no real problems, but the 135 was not used close in. The Tele-Elmarit 135 f 2.8 with googles doesn't work with anything but a Leica due to the viewfinder/rangefinder spacing. It's a wonderful lens, much better than many would lead you to believe, and is easily the least expensive Leica 135. The problem comes with a limited budget and whether you are willing to use a camera without a meter such as the M3. The M3 has a great viewfinder for 50, 90, and 135, but there are no internal frames for anything shorter.

 

[wew82]

2/how far away will your people/subjects generally be?
The farther away, the more the difference RF base can make. CLE and Bessas have shortbases, Hexar matches the Ms. This advantage might be offset by a 1:1 finder, but I have no Bessa experience to speak of. If you're not sniping but shooting fairly close with 90/135, that may make it moot as well.

3/Where do you like to be on the aperture spectrum?
F8 and be there? wide open for subject isolation? 90 and 135

Thanks again for all the advice.

I guess these are points I should have included - distance, generally 1-3 meters, so pretty close. I'm not super knowledgeable about RF bases, but currently veering towards the Bessa 3a with a f4/90 lens. However, is a shorter base better or worse for these kind of distances?

Also in terms of aperture, generally anticipate shooting f4-8 on a 90mm.

I definitely appreciate on paper and SLR makes more sense for this kind of thing, however my favourite camera's I've owned remain my Polaroid Bigshot and 600SE, both of which use rangefinder focusing which I prefer immensely to any other focusing method I've used (auto or manual) so wanted to find a RF film camera to work with.

I looked into Medium Format RF options like the Mamiya 7, but the lack of any 150mm lenses that can be focused closer than 2m on these systems ended up putting me off.

 

[David Hughes]

The CLE has a different, more accurate RF than the CL. It was meant to be the next Leica CL but Leica dropped those plans as it was stealing M sales.

Anyway, here it is, #10 on the list of best RF's, while the CL is #15:

https://www.cameraquest.com/leica.htm

Hi,

FWIW, I had a CLE and it lasted for one film and went back to the shop. Luckily they still had my CL and I was happy and have been for decades. BTW, I used the 90-C on the CLE.

I like to speak from experience*, it makes life easier, and I've decades of experience of the CL.

Regards, David

* That's why I'm not permanently running down USSR made cameras...

 

[tempest68]

Stephen seems to think the Bessa T with its 1.5x magnification focusing window works great for accuracy on longer focal length lenses: https://cameraquest.com/VCBT.htm

Of course no Aperture Priority and you have to use external finders, but intriguing anyway.

 

[Huss]

Huss, I know you love your CLE. And it's indeed a cool camera with fast 40 or 28.

But sorry: EBL is only one side of the story, the CLE 90mm framelines are very poor - to the point of being un-usable - compared to the nice stand-alone Bessa {R,R2*,R3*} 75mm, the M2/M3 90mm, or the Canon P 100mm frame-lines.

Akshully if you re-read what I first wrote, I mentioned that my Bessa R3A is much better than the CLE for tele lenses. What makes the CLE so good for 28mm lenses is exactly what makes it no so good for long lenses!
I think the R3A is also much better for 40mm lenses than the CLE.

 

[jloden]

Two caveats:

1) The only one of these I've owned is the Hexar RF
2) I don't own a 90mm, just a 75mm

Having said that, if I were primarily going to shoot a 90mm lens, I don't think the Hexar would be my first choice. Not because I don't like the Hexar, but simply because it's a lower magnification finder and the 90mm framelines are pretty small. But to each their own... if it helps I saw Scrambler posted some pictures of the various framelines here, that might help you get an idea of what to expect:

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137817

Not sure if there are magnifiers available that fit the Hexar, if there then that would probably help. Otherwise I've quite liked the Hexar's design and features in the limited amount of time I've had mine.