Best tonality at EI 500

[mfogiel]

A rich B&W midtone tonality is for me the prime reason, why I continue sticking with film. Typically Tri X, HP5+ or Neopan 400 will deliver excellent quality images, when exposed around EI 200-250 and developed in an appropriate developer, like D76, HC 110 or even Rodinal.
What I would like to know, is if any of you have found a reliable way of obtaining the same result at EI 500. The closest I got was with Acufine, but the grain was quite mushy - DD-X to my eyes is not anywhere near, and the grain, although not big, is very gritty.
I have seen lots of press lately about the new SPUR developers, but the tests usually concentrate on slower films - any real world feedback?
Thanks.

 

[Photo_Smith]

The EI depends on the range of tones in the original scene, if you're rating at EI 250 that suggests that you mainly take subjects in bright sunlight.

Where I live the lighting can be very dull, short scale so pushing gives nicer tonal range in some cases.

Some things to try might be 400 ISO films rated at 500-800 in Diafine, I don't use this combo but some swear by it.
I like HP5 at 640 in Microphen, not sure if you will because some find the grain structure not to their taste.

Another possibility is Delta 3200 in medium format rated at 1600 or lower it has a very long tonal scale, the larger format makes the grain acceptable to most

 

[tsiklonaut]

Try Tri-X in Diafine - it's like magic speed vs tonality terms. Medium format 120/220 Tri-X rolls I rate to asa 1250 (35mm rolls some pleople claim are better rated at ASA1600) for Diafine development. The grain and silky-smooth tonality is like around very smooth ASA400-640 range film while you have ASA1200+ real speed :angel:

Definitely among the best if not the best b&w combo for scanning. Wet-printing I haven't tried yet.

The only downside with Diafine is that you can't directly control contrast as with most other developers, since development time is "meaningless" in Diafine. You can only control contrast with exposure.

But IMO in case with Tri-X+Diafine combo you simply don't have to - it's mighty highly compensating developer in case with Tri-X (with other films it's not as excelling) - meaning while leaving midtones uncompressed it squeezes out all the shadow and highlight detail you'll need to work better in PP, it's better than anything I've seen on ASA400+ films without excessive grain and too compressed midtones starting to limit your adjustments, you just have to expose correctly IMHO.

Just me 2c,
Margus

 

[tsiklonaut]

Forgot to note another important advantage on Diafine: it's the most economical B&W developer on Planet Eart, point blank period.

My first solution of Diafine I made some 2 years ago, I've run through countless films, God knows how much, but the SAME farty old solution STILL keeps going today. Just incredible, virtually endless unexhaustible development power the Diafine has! The solution last virtually, or rather literally forever.

At least looking at my consumption then those two small (A & B powders) of Diafine canisters probably last me a lifetime.

 

[mfogiel]

I forgot to mention, that I have used Diafine for some time, and the main problem with processing, is uneven development - I have tried all the tricks I could think about, but there was always some streaking - anybody found a reliable way to avoid it ?. Besides this, Diafine does not really deliver any meaningful sharpness, and only because the grain is completely undefined, like mashed potatos, that you can make the pictures appear sharper, after some severe edge sharpening. This is an example at EI 400:


2008080305 by mfogiel, on Flickr

 

[craygc]

I would still seriously consider HP5 in DD-X. I find the tonality wonderful rated at 640

 

[Roger Hicks]

Sharpness... speed... tonality... fine grain... non-mushy grain... Which do you want? 'Cos you can't have them all. Answer to the OP: Expose Delta 3200 at EI1000-1600 developed as for 2000-3200 and you'll get gorgeous tonality at around the ISO speed, along with big grain and (for the speed/film size) high sharpness.

Addendum, based on the post above. HP5 in DD-X gives a true ISO of around 650 and great tonality at EI 400-500. What don't you like about this combination? You don't like gritty grain and no-one likes mushy grain. What DO you like?

Cheers,

R.

 

[dogbunny]

What about something like Tri-X and D76, but with a different dilution? I've also had some luck with T-MAX developer at the higher dilutions (1+9) as suggested by Chris Crawford.

db

 

[mfogiel]

This is Tri X @500 in DDX


20137215 by mfogiel, on Flickr

This is Tri X @250 in Hc 110, same camera, same lens


20133620 by mfogiel, on Flickr

 

[julio1fer]

Tones and contrast depend a lot on the subject, lighting and your technique. Also, are you shooting 35mm or 120 or LF? The larger the format the smoother tones you will get.

EI 500 is not a push for ISO 400 film. Classic combinations such as TMY in T-Max developer, Delta 400 in DD-X, HP5+ in ID-11, or Tri-X in D-76 should all deliver excellent results, once you nail down the dilution and development times best suited to your pictures.

If you are looking for a combo that compress tones (same as you get in pulling) maybe you should try compensating developers, such as Pyro or two-baths types, for instance Diafine.

Beutler mix is also very good for compensation, but it is not a fine-grain developer; it works best for slower, very fine grain films. Maybe Beutler delivers what you want with films such as TMX or Delta-400; I have never tried those films with Beutler.

 

[mfogiel]

The pyro developers make you lose one stop, not gain it. Perhaps I am not being clear to many of you, because not everybody is shooting 400ISO films at EI 250 by defalult. All I want to know, is if there is a way to get the same tonality with one stop more speed. By shooting at 2/3rd box speed, and keeping the development time and agitation on the short side, I automatically get good tonality with subdued grain. The problem arises, when I need high shutter speeds AND big DOF for zone focusing in the street, or shooting in interiors.
This is 35mm Neopan 400 @EI 250 in HC110, I just need the same quality, but one stop faster.

201213510 by mfogiel, on Flickr

 

[Gregoyle]

Ilford recommends shooting Delta 400 at EI 500 with Xtol.

-Greg

 

[redisburning]

tri-x in xtol 1:1 at box or higher gives me negatives I think would be right up your alley.

personally, the last time I shot that combo I was cursing at PS because there was so much midrange. this is where you and I diverge, I think, which is strange because we have such similar taste in lenses. I looked at histograms of scans from prints, famous and not so famous, that I liked, and they almost always had flat histograms. what you like is a nice midrange hump; I have found no lack of those using faster, non t-grained films and as such avoid them when I can. neopan was my favorite; a hybrid film.

you shoot a lot of people. I will no longer develop frames of people in rodinal nor would I go and try hc-110. it always makes their skin too dark to my taste. your last shot in this thread is beautiful, there is no doubt, though.