RayPA
Ignore It (It'll go away)
Funny to see this on Flickr, the photo/social (phocial?) networking site. First off, I know kediwah, the member who questions the photographer about using photos of the homeless without supplying any background info or accompanying text, but even without knowing him, I think he makes a valid point. However, the responses from the photographer and his supporters are just whacky reading. That and the incessant string of single-line comments that punctuate the discussion shows Flickr in all its glory.
The images are gorgeous, btw, but that for me is another issue entirely. Still, it's something to think about.
Any thoughts on the discussion going on in the Flickr comment box for this photograph?
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The images are gorgeous, btw, but that for me is another issue entirely. Still, it's something to think about.
Any thoughts on the discussion going on in the Flickr comment box for this photograph?
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bmattock
Veteran
I think that a tank makes a lousy airplane. Complaining that tanks don't tend to glide well is sort of a moot point, isn't it?
Flickr, to the best of my knowledge, isn't an online discussion forum. It is a photography sharing site. It has discussion forums, but the comments are not really intended perform that task. And amazingly, they tend not to do it very well.
CNN and the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Times have similar 'comments' sections where people rail on and on about the news story, or each other, or the weather, or whatever. Again, they're not discussion forums, they're comments - so how poorly they work as discussion forums doesn't seem a cogent point. "There's the NYT in all its glory" would be about as appropriate.
I like the photograph. I'm not terribly interested in the discussion. In fact, I never get into 'comments about comments' in Flickr photos. I reserve my vitriol and ire, my sturm und drang, for RFF, where it belongs. Because ya'll are my friends.
sojournerphoto
Veteran
Just seems a bit sad that som many people can only comment on the technical and artistic merit of the picture without (publically) considering the man's story and the discussion on whether the approach is OK or not. Kind of like the photo magazines that tell people how to make another super postcard by cloning in a sky etc without considering whether this is really what photography is about. The image justifies the means...
In my experience it is often expedient that 'one should die for the good of many', but those doing the self justification get it wrong.
Mike
In my experience it is often expedient that 'one should die for the good of many', but those doing the self justification get it wrong.
Mike
Chris101
summicronia
I agree with bmattock. 
The problem with Flickr is that photos are subjected to one-liners and spam posting much more than thoughtful analysis and discussion. I also agree with the photog's main critic there that his use of images of marginalized people in order to please his followers on Flickr is ethically borderline. It may be true that he drives to Las Vegas and distributed food and water, and it may not. He has, essentially treated his subject as an object and not as a person.
The problem with Flickr is that photos are subjected to one-liners and spam posting much more than thoughtful analysis and discussion. I also agree with the photog's main critic there that his use of images of marginalized people in order to please his followers on Flickr is ethically borderline. It may be true that he drives to Las Vegas and distributed food and water, and it may not. He has, essentially treated his subject as an object and not as a person.
bmattock
Veteran
I do not comment on the model's story and the ethics behind taking the photo because I do not care.
bmattock
Veteran
I agree with bmattock.
Eventually, everyone will agree with me. Don't worry, it's painless.
But it isn't really designed for that, either. It's not a photo critique site. There are such things, like www.photosig.com. People who want critique can go there. Flickr is a photo-sharing site that allows comments. So yes, one-liners, me-too-ism, love-your-photo-look-at-mine, and all that.
Say, that tank doesn't glide very well, does it?
No. Perhaps you'd prefer a plane.
I don't care about that stuff at all. I don't take such photos because I don't want to. Ethics? Maybe, I just don't care to take those sorts of photos. I generally don't spend much time looking at them, either - they don't usually intrigue me. That one is pretty powerful, I think, and I do like it. I am interested in the subject's backstory because of the photo, but I don't care what the situation was that resulted in a photograph being taken. Next I'd be worrying about what kind of gas-guzzler the guy drove on his way there, or whether he used a digital camera or film. All I care about is the photo and if I like it or not.
RayPA
Ignore It (It'll go away)
wow! I'd hate to be your enemy!
Of course Flickr isn't the proper medium for a discussion on photography (heck RFF is barely the proper medium for a discussion about photography) , but it's still nonetheless interesting (to me at least) to see this type of discussion try to play itself out over there. Something about the backdrop, particularly for this discussion, that sort of adds to the argument, on both sides.
Is Flickr really the place for this type of photography? Somehow when these types of images are posted on Flickr, the images seem to become more about the photographer and less about the subject matter (is that OK?) And the comments seem to bear that out. Anyway, lot's of interesting questions posed by the images and the posting on Fllickr. If you think otherwise, that's cool. Just passing along something photographic. But I'd love to hear from the PJs here at RFF.
Most folks are really turned off by Flickr, but I'm actually somewhat fascinated by the dynamics and I get a kick out of watching stuff play out over there.
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ferider
Veteran
If you only could shoot it .... (the discussion, that is)
Interesting link/discussion though. Thanks. Better than the place where my 16 year old posts her self-portraits ....
bmattock
Veteran
wow! I'd hate to be your enemy!
I don't have any enemies that I know of. Couple of people who bug me, but life goes on. If I start hating people, they win.
Discussion isn't that too bad, but communication can be. Same here, but it's better here, mostly.
Sure, why not?
Could be - I guess I don't see that in them. But in any case, I either like a photo or I do not. No matter if it is about the photographer or not.
Well, that's not me, so I'll butt out if you wish. You didn't stipulate you only wanted to hear from photojournalists.
I don't know who 'most' folks are, but it seems to be a popular place from my point of view.
Or perhaps, like Yogi Berra said, "It's so crowded, nobody goes there anymore."
back alley
IMAGES
without flickr, where would i post my amateur photos? for that is what i am...
FrankS
Registered User
Powerful photography, too good for Flickr, it belongs in galleries and the photographer is at least the equal of many Magnum photographers. He clearly has the cooperation of his subjects. (not sneaking shots from the hip, etc) Forcing us to see these people up so close slams home the fact that these are people. Too many simply walk by and don't/won't look.
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RayPA
Ignore It (It'll go away)
If you only could shoot it .... (the discussion, that is)
Exactly! Maybe that's it!
Thanks, Roland.
RayPA
Ignore It (It'll go away)
you're right I didn't, so I just added that looking for a different POV. don't go getting all butt hurt (as my teenagers say) on me now, Bill.
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Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Flickr is the multi car pile up on photography's highway ... you can't help but look as you go by in the opposite lane!
RayPA
Ignore It (It'll go away)
I agree, powerful, but you might be right. These might be better suited to galleries, because they are so "pretty." One of the links in the comment stream points to an article that used one of his photos. The photo is an image of a sick woman lying in bed and the red and blue blankets that cover her are heavily color saturated. The colors just pop. I think it detracts from the image, all this stylization. It didn't seem to fit the essay.
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back alley
IMAGES
so, is the original (edited) question about flickr or about posting photos with no background info? or about the discussion?
joe
joe
bmattock
Veteran
Yes, yes, and yes. Maybe.
RayPA
Ignore It (It'll go away)
my question? if so then, yes. all that and then some. i'm just interested in seeing if the the photos and the discussion raise any questions or interest. both do for me.
the original issue brought up by kediwah on flickr had to do with posting images of homeless people without providing some kind of background on their situation.
(and btw, I edit my posts all the time. I'm a tech. writer)
/\ see what I mean
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FrankS
Registered User
IMO, the photographer is doing good simply by engaging with these people during the process of photographing them, and as said before, by forcing us to see them so intimately. It does not bother me that the photographer did not present the names and background information of his subjects in his Flickr presentation.
bmattock
Veteran
I agree.
I have never seen anyone ask if they know the name and circumstances of a homeless person before writing a story about them, or writing a poem about them, or drawing one from memory, or a painting, etc, etc.
But when we use a camera - it must have some ethical justification?
Hmmm. Not seeing it.