Bigger Better???

Bill Pierce

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I’m going to be on the road for a week with just a cellphone, not a laptop. But I thought this column that Ming Thein wrote awhile back was worth discussing. We all lust for those super cameras with the big sensors and big price tags, but are they really going to benefit the photography that we do? I’ll be back in touch in a week or so when this question has been discussed and, perhaps, put to rest.

https://blog.mingthein.com/2019/02/21/bigger-isnt-always-better/#more-17682
 
Bill,

As usual, Ming Thein makes many good points, and the equivalencies he sites betwee Micro 4/3, Full Frame and Medium Format digital under real world, hand held conditions are enlightening. His advice that bigger is better, if you are willing to lug an appropriately sized tripod or lighting equipment is also sound.

He excluded cost from his analysis and stated that he was doing so. But cost is highly relevant to most of us who are not professionals with a chance of recouping the cost relatively quickly, if we have run the numbers correctly and have made reasonable assumptions. Even if money were no object, realizing the full potential of 36+ MP sensors, be they full frame or MF, is likely quite difficult. There is also the practical consideration that many of us don't print as much as in the old days and don't print as large, so the full capability of the high megapixel sensor may rarely or never be used in the display of one's work.

One point that Ming Thein made is that "big and cheap" these days means medium or large format film (i.e., cheap relative to MF digital). Many of us here are still film people or mostly film people, so this point is salient for us. Personally, for the kind of photography I do, which is landscape or urban landscape or slow moving animate things and mostly black and white, medium format film seems to hit the sweet spot as far as image quality, "look" (due to the lenses), portability and, in this post-film market, cost. Large format was just too much to carry. 35mm is still great for many applications too, but lacks the distinctive look of medium format for the kind of photography I do. Street shooters, sports shooters, etc will almost certainly have other ideas that suit them better.
 
"We all lust for those super cameras with the big sensors and big price tags"

Good topic, Bill

I don't normally follow the usual YT photo gurus, especially these two but they did bring up some interesting predictions, whether they come true is an other matter.


Predictions like a new Canon FF mirrorless camera for 500 USD or the demise of APS C sized sensors and the lenses for them.

They claim the sensor size manufacturing cost gap differences have narrowed going from APS C to Full Frame is only 150 USD more and the streamlining manufacturing to one size only and just making lenses for the full frame format would be more cost effective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr5TgN8jAAg
 
The one reason I think that there is value in the bigger/better gonna improve my pictures theory is this: I got the bug and bought a so so "prosumer" camera and was taking so so pictures. I had a mentor who could be, errrr rather abrupt in his critiques and I was getting a lot of that abrupt. I decided that if I were to be serious I needed a serious camera and bought a Canon 5 D and dedicated myself to bringing my skill up to the level of that camera. I haven't gotten there yet but I did vastly improve my skills with the challenge.
 
Personally I think the camera body regardless of sensor size make up very little of the overall weight considering the size of some lenses these days. Personally I use mainly f/2.0 rather then F 1.4 lenses for both saving in weight as well as the saving in cost. Additionally I'll limit the number of lens I take on a trip to say two or three; example I'm head to NYC this Sat for a 3 day weekend I'm bring my M9, Summicron 28mm and 50mm Summilux, I'm than going to some Island along the Georgia coast for a week in April for which I'll also bring my Voigtlander 21 f/1.8

As far as a laptop goes I'd rather just bring a small tablet like my IPAD or just a cellphone and wait to process images when I get home.
 
Well last week on a work trip I travelled with my 8x20 ulf camera, as well as 4x5 and 35mm too. Exposed 6 sheets of 8x20, 10 sheets of 4x5, and a couple rolls. People need to stop obsessing over their format or camera and instead focus on the end product and what works for them.
 
This is why I think APSC is still relavent even though FF is coming down in price... it is the best combination between price, size, image quality, and weight. Mirrorless FF bodies are decently sized, but 99% of the lenses are bigger than one would expect vs body size. Hopefully that will change in the future.
 
Have a nice trip!

Mft will smudge fine details more often than anything with larger sensor.
Flash and tripod for what? BiF and wildlife?
Photography for what? Poster prints or post cards?

Personally, for me larger is no way better. But every time I need best quality guaranteed, it is DSLR with large or small lens on it and sometimes flash.
I would change my Canon 5DMII to RP. At some point
5DMKII is the largest camera body in my possession.
 
This is why I think APSC is still relavent even though FF is coming down in price... it is the best combination between price, size, image quality, and weight. Mirrorless FF bodies are decently sized, but 99% of the lenses are bigger than one would expect vs body size. Hopefully that will change in the future.


Agree!



For example while I think the Leica TL 18mm F2.8 at 80 grams and the 23mm F2.0 TL at 153 grams would be great compact lenses to use on the Leica CL the TL 35mm F1.4 at 428 grams seems huge.


CL+18mm F2.8=approx 483grams
CL +23mm F2= approx 553 grams
CL+ 35mm F1.4=approx 831 grams
 
Thein makes some good points, and I've observed the effects and done the balancing act he describes. I appreciate the look of medium format, both film and digital. But MF is not always what I choose to take out shooting!


When out shooting with "lesser" gear, you may not expect as high image quality and thus be less careful in the process. And then of course the resulting image quality isn't so good.


Several decades ago, living within walking distance of a state university, I took some classes for the fun of it mostly in the Art Dept, including photography. I would often shoot Minolta CLE or Pentax 35mm and 6x7. I also had Pentax Auto 110 gear and set out to see how good it could be. I was careful in shooting, meticulous in developing and printing in my home darkroom. I wanted to see if the prof and fellow students would ask anything about the film format, but none ever did. So my 8x10 prints from 110 were "good enough" for purpose!


An interesting exercise, but there was less flexibility and versatility in this particular balancing act.
 
Agree!



For example while I think the Leica TL 18mm F2.8 at 80 grams and the 23mm F2.0 TL at 153 grams would be great compact lenses to use on the Leica CL the TL 35mm F1.4 at 428 grams seems huge.


CL+18mm F2.8=approx 483grams
CL +23mm F2= approx 553 grams
CL+ 35mm F1.4=approx 831 grams

I’m hoping Leica makes a 35mm f2 for the CL one day.
 
I think mirrorless APS-C cameras will drive FF DSLR out of business soon. I recently purchased an APS-C camera and the image quality exceeds that of the bulky & heavy Nikon D810 that I owned, in a much smaller body with smaller lenses. If shallow DOF is a concern, just shoot wide open and you won't see a difference. Plus, with every sensor generation being more sensitive, the previous advantage of larger sensors collecting more light is no longer an argument either. With these mirrorless APS-C cameras you have burst rates of up to 11 fps, equaling Nikon's flagship D3, which should be enough for every professional sports photographer.
 
I’ll be back in touch in a week or so when this question has been discussed and, perhaps, put to rest.

That'll never happen. We'll get sidetracked, start talking about HCB and what is "art", before talking about Fujifilm putting up prices and another Leica special edition... what was the question again?
 
Larger format (D)LSRs used to always have the advantage of a bigger viewfinder, which was great. I still remember the peephole of my first DX Nikon DSLR after coming from a Minolta film body. It was horrible, but limited by the size of the mirror are of less. Electronic viewfinders are no longer tied to the sensor (or mirror) size, so that advantage is gone.

The other advantage of "full frame" over APSC size is familiarity (SLRs) and legacy lenses (mirrorless). The later will diminish over time as people don't have legacy lenses (I don't). However, while all specs are quoted (somewhat arbitrarily) as 35mm equivalents, people will always think it is the standard size and it will be both familiar and something to aim for.

But, while I think APSC is a great compromise like most others, Fuji is the last company to take it seriously, possibly the only company to ever take it seriously. Canon, Nikon, and Sony all put out tentative APSC cameras with weak lens lineups and have since shown their hands, deciding that full frame is where it is. Pentax has continues to put out APSC lenses but also have their "professional" full frame camera. Panasonic has made the same move: full frame is professional.

So, we essentially have Olympus and Fuji as the only companies putting out a range from amateur to professional in a sensor size smaller than full frame. Is that healthy? On one hand they have a monopoly in their fields, on the other they are trying to be competitive with cameras using larger sensors. I hope their will to be competitive with larger formats leads them to highlight the advantages of smaller formats. Olympus does this very will with IBIS - a smaller sensor is easier to move than a bigger one. Olympus and Fuji both both do this with a full range of appropriate size and weight lenses, which are proportionally smaller that their full frame equivalents.
 
One thing that always bugs me about "equivalency" is depth of field. /rant on/

Larger format users correctly point to the thinner depth of field at a specific aperture. You need a brighter (and therefore bigger and more expensive) lens in a smaller format to achieve the same shallow depth of field. A full frame f/1.4 lens would need an f/1.0 APSC, and an f/0.7 m43 lens. That's fine, the advantage is in the larger format (up to full frame anyway).

But, the counter argument doesn't fly unless you are hitting your minimum aperture. You don't get more depth of field with a smaller format because you can just stop down another stop with no cost/size/weight penalty. For cameras with the same pixel count, diffraction will set in at m43 one stop earlier than APSC, and two stops earlier than full frame. For example, a m43 landscape shot at f/8 will show the same level of diffraction as an APSC shot at f/11 and full frame shot at f/16. The only limiting factor is if we shoot m43 at f/11 and our full frame lens doesn't go to f/22. Diffraction from an f/16 aperture is greater than at f/8, with the diffraction is being spread over twice the angular range. But the bigger sensor has twice the angular range to compensate (for the same number of pixels the pixels will be twice the width, the diffraction will be the same at a per pixel level). It makes no difference. Increasing the resolution in the larger sensor means you'll see diffraction at a pixel level earlier, but the final print will look be sharper.

/rant over/ for now...
 
I wonder in the days before digital if this same argument was ever made about the difference between 4x5 and medium format. I have tough time justifying that difference.

I know tonality and the zone system (and as above depth of field) are important but with digital editing is it still important.
 
Of course they were...and how large you could print was directly related to the size of the negative... much more so than now.


Not only that but if size/weight is an issue due to having to carry equipment over a long distance or multiple days think about how many rolls of 120/220 fit in the same space as one or two 4x5 film holders. If we're taking about color film that could be something like 100-200 shots of 6x7 (6-10rolls of 220) if not more verses 4 shoot of 4x5 when comparing say a Mamiya 7II and 4x5 field camera.
 
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