Leica LTM Black IIIb and lens

Leica M39 screw mount bodies/lenses
Dralowid

Dralowid

Michael
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Michael,

Interesting. The serial is certainly in the right range for a IIIb, but I didn't know there were any black ones, never mind "Heer" ones around - thought that was equivalent to the Holy Grail? I agree about the wear pattern, too even - and wouldn't even a black body have had a chrome speed selector knob?

I think I would want to commission an internal examination, just to make sure the collars & cuffs match, before I parted with too much cash. If genuine, it would be a nice thing to have.

'Fraid I can't comment on the Elmar, I'm not up on lenses much.
 
John,

I agree.

Surely this is a later repaint. This calls into question the WH and the Heer, after all, surely you wouldn’t repaint a Heer.

If it were a conversion (and I wish it was!) the combined view/rangefinder window would be most unusual. Even very late conversions keep the separate windows.

If it were a conversion from something TO a IIIb it would have an earlier number.

As far as I know, black knobs and dials are a very post-war thing, see Swedish Army/Three Crowns/whatever.

So, I have been looking for a black IIIb for years but I’ll keep away from this one, it is all too good to be true (apart from the ‘wear’) and someone with even less knowledge than myself will probably bid high.

Michael
 
This is another one of those "faked" Military cameras coming out of a UK collection, first was that DANA Grey 1946 IIIC and then the fake Black collapsible Summicron and now this one ~ keep away from this camera 100% fake engraved repaint!
* note the fake overall worn patina, the Russian and Polish fakes are often done like this! *

Tom

PS: ..... that lens is also a non Leitz paintjob as well
 
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...mind you, it isn't as nice as the fake black stepper(?) IIIc that was for sale somewhere on the West Coast last summer. Sold for big money.

Poor old IIIb didn't really deserve to be messed around like this...


Michael
 
Dralowid said:
...mind you, it isn't as nice as the fake black stepper(?) IIIc that was for sale somewhere on the West Coast last summer. Sold for big money.

Poor old IIIb didn't really deserve to be messed around like this...


Michael
Click to expand...

Ohh that Stepper IIIC/from III Black paint MAY have been original, after talking to a few Leitz old timers, they said that some very strange conversions were made during WW2 and at times serial numbers were also carried over to a replacement cameras altogether.....

That camera is STILL for sale at Camera West so much that I still know.....


Tom
 
$2195.00 Black stepper IIIc converted from III

With the collapse in the £ vs the $ this makes for an expensive Christmas present for myself!

Michael
 
LEICA HISTORICA PUBLICATION "SCREW CAMERA PRODUCTION" 1925-1960.
lists:-
Leica IIIb 295301-295305 in Black "schwarz" 5 cameras produced 1939.

This camera is listed in the batch 349301-351000 produced 1940 but the total for this batch is stated as 1100 cameras and should total 1700.
This highlights that Leitz factory production records of these early wartime batches contain many errors including e.g. IIIc's listed as IIIb's.
The missing 600 cameras in the above batch could therefore be Leica IIIb's supplied to the military in small consignments and not recorded in the factory records as such.
It could very well be that this is a genuine military camera.
That the German military was using Leica IIIb's has been recorded in British military records of this period and particularly the Luftwaffe aircraft shot down over Britain nearly always carried Leica IIIb's and to find a IIIc in a captured Luftwaffe plane even as late as 1942 was very rare.
 
I'm not qualified to say whether this is genuine or not. My only comment is regarding the wear on it. My black paint Leica III exhibits a very similar wear pattern on it - and that's definitely not fake and never been re-painted (was sat on once though!).
 
I look forward to hearing more.

My reservations on first seeing this camera were more about the seller - all his recent positive feedback is Private, which means we can't see if he's ever sold a bona fide item, and all his bidders are anonymous - in innovation which is supposed to prevent scams, but more often seems to be used to prevent anyone warning bidders off fakes and counterfeit items.
 
I stand to be corrected...but surely black knobs are strange (apart from Swedish?)?

Anyone have any other examples?

Michael
 
Sorry to expose my ignorance, are you saying this camera is not even a Leica or that it is a hacked Leica?

Whatever it is, this a camera I could put to use on a daily basis, just wish it had a black lens like the Leica O...
 
I'd suggest that it is a real Leica IIIb with the appropriate number that has been subsequently painted and engraved.

It is possible that it is original but if it is, it is very unusual indeed (and I apologise). If it is original it is a very valuable camera, see M2user's post.

In the world of birdwatching, about which I know even less, the rule to adopt is to assume that the bird you are studying is neither rare nor unusual...then you are probably right!

Michael
 
Sadly, I have no interest in the camera as a collector, just as a user. I am looking for 'pocket' camera, and am thinking that a Leica LTM with a collapsible lens could just be the answer. And I prefer black cameras, so this one caught my eye as well worn user to live in my pocket.

Off-topic, but did Leica ever make the collapsible 50 in black similar to the lens on the new Leica O?
 
Black III's are the newest LTM cameras that are reasonably prolific in black, and thus not pricey. By the IIIa, they start to take off in price. Even a chrome IIIb is pricey, thus a legitimate black IIIb is very pricey.
 
John,

Sorry to be dense... are you saying that as Leica progressed through the III-series, from the III to the IIIa to the IIIb and etc, that the cameras became more predominantly chrome with fewer and fewer black cameras being made?
 
I work on the assumtion that an ltm black camera later than a II or a III is most likely to be a conversion or something very rare indeed.

Apparently there was a batch of serial numbers put to one side for black IIIa, but it is said that none were produced. There are plenty of black IIIa cameras around and these are conversions, mostly from I and II and have serial numbers to match.

Black cameras in worn condition used to be amongst some of the least expensive Leicas around but this is no longer the case.

If you want an affordable 'user', I'd look for IIIc and IIf. And if you have just a tad of the collector in you, the black dial IIf is surprisingly inexpensive for something made in small numbers.

Michael
 
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