momus1
Established
I've been BO printing w/ the 2200 and 1280's using the MIS Eboni ink in refillable cartridges for many years, and the prints are just beautiful. Lots of contrast and deep, deep blacks. I tried the UT full ink sets once from MIS and didn't like them nearly as much. The beauty of BO is that you can print a 13x19 print for basically just the price of the paper. Ink usage is very minimal. Be warned though, you will have to do a trial print every few days, and you may as well do some head cleanings at the same time. You can buy the cheap off brand color cartridges (at least you can for the 1280 and 2200) and go a long time before replacing them. I recently bought a Moab sampler pack of papers and found several good ones in the selection. Epson heavy weight matt is good for proofing, and the Epson Velvet Fine Art papers are great w/ BO prints. I also use Hawk Mountain Condor B&W paper successfully.
Recently I wondered if I was missing something printing this way, so I bought an HP 8750 printer. It makes beautiful darkroom-type prints using the grayscale method, but the Epson BO prints are sharper, and I ended up preferring them to the HP on almost every print. It was good to see it w/ my own eyes. If you frame your work properly and use 100% rag paper a BO print w/ a carbon based black ink should last centuries. And you won't have to deal w/ calibrating your monitor w/ expensive tools, buying expensive ink sets, or going crazy trying to eliminate color casts.
Recently I wondered if I was missing something printing this way, so I bought an HP 8750 printer. It makes beautiful darkroom-type prints using the grayscale method, but the Epson BO prints are sharper, and I ended up preferring them to the HP on almost every print. It was good to see it w/ my own eyes. If you frame your work properly and use 100% rag paper a BO print w/ a carbon based black ink should last centuries. And you won't have to deal w/ calibrating your monitor w/ expensive tools, buying expensive ink sets, or going crazy trying to eliminate color casts.
Last edited:
Bob Michaels
nobody special
I printed BO for many years using a 1280 / Eboni / Hawk Mountain Condor BW. You are right, there is something stunning about the BO prints. The only reason I quit was the high maintenance of the 1280 using pigment inks. I wore out 2 1/2 of them.
I still show prints made that way. They just have a sparkle about them that works with my style of photography.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
John, if you like neutral B&W prints (I do), carbon inks such as the MIS Ebony are probably the best way to go.
I have never seen a neutral B&W prints from any manufacturer's stock ink set. None. If others have produced one, and willing to send me a sample, I will take my words back.
I may have mentioned this before, but I tried MIS ink on a (stupid of me buying a used inkjet) R1800 and then using a Densitometer to "read" the print afterwards. CMYK channels all showing similar numbers up to 2 decimal points. Translation: it's pretty darn neutral.
I am concentrating on wet-prints now, that's why I haven't yet picked up an Epson 1400 + MIS inks. Sounds like a good way to get high-resolution neutral B&W prints.
I have never seen a neutral B&W prints from any manufacturer's stock ink set. None. If others have produced one, and willing to send me a sample, I will take my words back.
I may have mentioned this before, but I tried MIS ink on a (stupid of me buying a used inkjet) R1800 and then using a Densitometer to "read" the print afterwards. CMYK channels all showing similar numbers up to 2 decimal points. Translation: it's pretty darn neutral.
I am concentrating on wet-prints now, that's why I haven't yet picked up an Epson 1400 + MIS inks. Sounds like a good way to get high-resolution neutral B&W prints.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
I think what Shadowfox is effectively trying to say is that it is very difficult to make a neutral gray from mixing red, green, & blue while it is simple to do so by mixing black & white.
"Neutral Gray" can be technically defined by evaluating the Lab A and Lab B curves with a colorimeter. But most often it ends up that a technically correct neutral gray is not exactly what we were looking for. Some prefer a slightly warm gray, some a slightly cool gray. Wet darkroom prints were not exactly neutral and could be varied by paper, developer, or toning.
Having said all of that, some of the newer printers like the 2400 / 2880 / 3800 allow the printer to vary to "tone" of a b&w print by using the ABW mode. Roy Harrington's QTR does the same with even more control.
I have printed a lot a Eboni BO. Even using Hawk Mountain Condor BW, which yields the coolest tone, it does not give truly neutral grays. But I tend to like that tone.
I don't think the tone I have dialed in on my 2400 is an exact neutral gray either, although I could do so if I have a colorimeter to measure the LAB values. I just dialed in what I like.
"Neutral Gray" can be technically defined by evaluating the Lab A and Lab B curves with a colorimeter. But most often it ends up that a technically correct neutral gray is not exactly what we were looking for. Some prefer a slightly warm gray, some a slightly cool gray. Wet darkroom prints were not exactly neutral and could be varied by paper, developer, or toning.
Having said all of that, some of the newer printers like the 2400 / 2880 / 3800 allow the printer to vary to "tone" of a b&w print by using the ABW mode. Roy Harrington's QTR does the same with even more control.
I have printed a lot a Eboni BO. Even using Hawk Mountain Condor BW, which yields the coolest tone, it does not give truly neutral grays. But I tend to like that tone.
I don't think the tone I have dialed in on my 2400 is an exact neutral gray either, although I could do so if I have a colorimeter to measure the LAB values. I just dialed in what I like.
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
Well, I think I have decided what I'm going to do, FWIW. I'm gonna get the 1400 and print my color show. And that will probably deplete the inks. And when the inks are depleted, I will get the MIS set along with a few extra blacks, and use it only for B&W from then on. This way I'm not wasting anything, and only buying ink when i was going to have to buy it anyway. And I'll be able to try BO as much as I like once I swtich over to the MIS inks.
This is the show I am going to print, BTW. I told my poet friend to choose ten of these and write poems based on them, and we're going to show the photos and poems together, and print up a little Blurb catalog: http://inverseroom.creotia.com/words
This is the show I am going to print, BTW. I told my poet friend to choose ten of these and write poems based on them, and we're going to show the photos and poems together, and print up a little Blurb catalog: http://inverseroom.creotia.com/words
Bob Michaels
nobody special
Just remember that a refurbished (as good as new) 1400 from Epson is $159 including shipping. That includes new ink carts. The ink carts cost $114 (6 @ $19 each). So make sure whatever 1400 you buy comes with new filled ink carts.
Desktop inkjet printers use the old Gillette razor blade business model where you practically give away the unit and make your money on the consumables.
Desktop inkjet printers use the old Gillette razor blade business model where you practically give away the unit and make your money on the consumables.
Last edited:
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
Wow, really?!? Holy moses, that's a good deal. Do they always have them in stock? I was going to pay 250 for a new one.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
Epson USA refurbished stock changes very quickly. I just saw they had then now. Check www.Epson.com and look in the the clearance center.
Epson refurbished units are those that have been returned under warranty. Most often is user error rather than a true defect. But Epson fixes anything that is actually broken, then QCs them quite well, packs them with new ink carts and sell cheap. They have new equipment warranty. I have owned 5 Epson refurbished printers, 2 Epson refurbished scanners, and gave 2 Epson refurbished compact printers to my kids for Christmas gifts. I would never buy a new Epson product.
Rhoyle
Well-known
I have a 1400. It does wonderful color work. You can print black only to the extent that there is a choice in the driver that lets you choose color or grayscale. The printer is optomized for RC papers. You'll have to decide if you like the results on matte papers. I have done come bw stuff with it using mixed color as well as greyscale. Like all other Epson printers I've done this with, the results vary. If you want a slam dunk and not have to worry about fussing with it to get the results you want, I think a system that is designed for bw will be best. Don't get me wrong, I love my 1400, but you need to get to know it.
dfoo
Well-known
With MIS ink carts on matte paper the results are excellent (after I created a custom ICC for the paper). I've used both Epson Ultra Premium Presentation Matte, and Velvet Fine Art.
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
Arrrgh, I want to go for it, but I'm about to go out of town for a few days...I'll give them a call later this morning and see how long shipping will take.
I sold my absurdly expensive drum machine on eBay and can now BOTH pay my taxes and buy a printer!
gnuyork
Well-known
I feel the same way. I took the time to learn the Roark method with the MIS UltraTone 2 system with the 1280, which at the time was the one of the few methods for getting good B&W inkjet prints. It was pretty complex with the tone curves for different papers and all, then I got the 2400 and was stunned by my first B&W print from it, and I felt a little disappointed in how easy it was.
Especially today with the better glossy baryta papers and the glossy black ink, I can't imagine it being better than that.