BREXIT: UK members might want to consider GAS before the June 23 referendum

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valdas said:
But speaking of Brexit, I don's see how that is an EU problem. It was a Swedish internal decision to accept such a large immigrant population and integrate (or rather not integrate) the way it was done. It was not forced by EU lawmakers or politicians. Just look at Finland. The point is - it is easy to blame EU for all local issues that were created by local politicians and to a large degree local voters who trusted them.
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as a Finn, don't think it was conscious decision from our part, but what cooled heads of our politicians least a bit is the gloomy economy that's been continuing several years now. had economy been stronger, we would have same problems as Sweden does. and in future probably have anyways.
 
Hi,

Isn't it interesting to hear Australian and American views on immigration; and here's me thinking that both countries are 99% immigrant descended.

Regards, David
 
jarski said:
as a Finn, don't think it was conscious decision from our part, but what cooled heads of our politicians least a bit is the gloomy economy that's been continuing several years now. had economy been stronger, we would have same problems as Sweden does. and in future probably have anyways.
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maybe not conscious, but the fact is - it can be conscious it you want... my point is that's not EU as such to blame.
 
Wulfthari said:
Funny...the UK and France have the biggest muslim communities in Europe, but according to the leave campaign the real problem is us, the European immigrants.

That is because most of Pakistani and Arabs in England have British citizenship (even if culturally are definitely not British, or Europeans for the matter) so they vote and therefore nobody, not even Farage, can afford calling them out, they all repeat that Islam is a religion of peace etc...

On the other side Italians, Spaniards, Eastern Europeans are fair targets because we are...how to say? White I think. I have enough of hearing people of the UKIP that it's a shame that in a hospital in Coventry they all talk Italian or that a British citizen should be worried if a Lithuanian family go to leave in their neighbourhood...we never planted bombs in the tube or on buses like the "good" Muslim citizens in 2005.
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Hi,

Two interesting points in this;

1, "Islam is a religion of peace" and so for that matter is Christianity but a lot of mainly Muslim countries have been bombed in the last few years and mainly led by Christian America. They probably think they are defending themselves.

In a nutshell, attacking a foreign soldier in your country seems to me to be defence. But we call it terrorism...

2, As for "planted bombs in the tube or on buses" we dropped them from bombers flying over the towns or villages. And we shelled them. And someone decided to say Muslims were behind the 9/11 attacks but I would have named the country the plotters came from and their financiers etc.

At the time I wondered why something as vague as "Muslims" was blamed I now think it was a cover up. For consistency it would be like calling the Mexican immigrants and drug lords Catholics, or the Nazis for that matter.

Sometimes I think we are looking for scapegoats for our own inadequacies...

Regards, David

PS In hospital for an operation I was told I had the Viking DNA version; I though I was Welsh and "David" is a Jewish name (popular as a Biblical name in Wales) and "Hughes" is an anglicised version of a Norman French name. It's all very confusing. Still, at least I use my real name here.
 
David Hughes said:
Hi,

Isn't it interesting to hear Australian and American views on immigration; and here's me thinking that both countries are 99% immigrant descended.

Regards, David
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Dear David,

Well, I'm just re-reading Dorothy Whitelock's The Beginnings of English Society, which is about the immigrants/invaders of the 6th to 11th centuries: the Angles, Jutes and Saxons who now call themselves "English".

Cheers,

R.
 
valdas said:
But speaking of Brexit, I don's see how that is an EU problem. It was a Swedish internal decision to accept such a large immigrant population and integrate (or rather not integrate) the way it was done. It was not forced by EU lawmakers or politicians. Just look at Finland. The point is - it is easy to blame EU for all local issues that were created by local politicians and to a large degree local voters who trusted them.
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I disagree with this. EU has no internal borders, we can not start again with border checkpoints. Then the EU administration will criticize and force us to conform. What we have done is a temporary identity check at the border, which is accepted by EU. The problem in EU is that many countries do not share the burden of Germany and us (or for that matter Great Britain).

Real refugees should of course be given help, but some people just want to improve their lives in a country with better living conditions and welfare. That is why many of them want to go Britain, Germany or Sweden. Many of the former eastern countries, like Hungary, accepts no immigrants. EU tries to make them change their views. It is narrow minded of them, as many of us remember the refugees from communism.🙄

I guess that we are at the end of the road, something must change in EU otherwise many countries will follow Britain and vote about this.


I think most us like the free movement of goods, money and people and how easy it is to buy photo equipment with internet orders from ffords in Scotland or Maco-Direct in Germany. Compare the problems with custom if you order from Freestyle in US...


But many of us who have experienced baltic and polish criminal gangs raiding our homes, beggars in streets harassing us and had our vehicles torched by rioting young muslim males at night have had enough now.
 
Borge H said:
I disagree with this. EU has no internal borders, we can not start again with border checkpoints. Then the EU administration will criticize and force us to conform. What we have done is a temporary identity check at the border, which is accepted by EU. The problem in EU is that many countries do not share the burden of Germany and us (or for that matter Great Britain).

Real refugees should of course be given help, but some people just want to improve their lives in a country with better living conditions and welfare. That is why many of them want to go Britain, Germany or Sweden. Many of the former eastern countries, like Hungary, accepts no immigrants. EU tries to make them change their views. It is narrow minded of them, as many of us remember the refugees from communism.🙄

I guess that we are at the end of the road, something must change in EU otherwise many countries will follow Britain and vote about this.


I think most us like the free movement of goods, money and people and how easy it is to buy photo equipment with internet orders from ffords in Scotland or Maco-Direct in Germany. Compare the problems with custom if you order from Freestyle in US...


But many of us who have experienced baltic and polish criminal gangs raiding our homes, beggars in streets harassing us and had our vehicles torched by rioting young muslim males at night have had enough now.
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Now I disagree. 🙂 Why they were coming to Sweden and not Finland? Because Sweden decided to have the benefit system for immigrants that was very lucrative. EU did not force it.
 
valdas said:
Now I disagree. 🙂 Why they were coming to Sweden and not Finland? Because Sweden decided to have the benefit system for immigrants that was very lucrative. EU did not force it.
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But, as I said before, it's always easiest to blame the EU, especially if the decisions by national politicians turn out to have been half-baked.

Cheers,

R.
 
Borge H said:
But many of us who have experienced baltic and polish criminal gangs raiding our homes, beggars in streets harassing us and had our vehicles torched by rioting young muslim males at night have had enough now.
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and like I said before - everything has its price. it is very unfortunate that along with qualified, honest and cheap (as a labor cost) polish and baltic plumbers, hotel maids, berrie pickers, construction workers there is also a free flow of criminals. baltic and polish people are ashamed of this, very much. but one cannot choose to cherry pick - have benefit, but avoid an issue that comes with it...
 
Why should Britain get out of the EU? With the EU they always have someone else to blame for their own faults.

As if the EU would hinder the british economy to grow. As if only the EU makes stupid laws. All countries have many stupid laws even without the help of the EU.

The behavior of the british representatives in EU negotiations is so bad and it's still accepted by the others as the typical british behavior when outside of their own country. Behave this way in negotiations with the US and they will kick you out. You even got the biggest discount of all EU-payers with this. You really want to risk all these privileges?

I still love the european idea (to be more than just an open economic market) but maybe it's the wrong idea and the exit of GB is the right move back to single autonomous countries who only have the choice of US or Russia or China as big partner in the background.
 
helenhill said:
Wulfthari had mentioned high pay and benefits
Certainly that is of the past... Strikes, Protests... benefits and wages are now being cut

It will be fair to say this is not just an EU problem .The whole world has taken an Economic Hit

I Wonder if Europe was to have another World War how the EU would prevent it ...

To me the EU stands more for regulation & business than For People
Creating a gravy train for the few, drudgery for the Mass
With a little sweetener to live and work where ye will ...

Do hope it works out 😉
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The changes you identify are part of a much wider, global change on the balance of power and accommodation between capital and labour. There is some robust and recent economic research on this. One of many considerations for those of us voting in the UK referendum is whether that shift needs to be constrained and whether that is better or more likely to be achieved in or out

Mike
 
sojournerphoto said:
The changes you identify are part of a much wider, global change on the balance of power and accommodation between capital and labour. There is some robust and recent economic research on this. One of many considerations for those of us voting in the UK referendum is whether that shift needs to be constrained and whether that is better or more likely to be achieved in or out

Mike
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But are there any signals that local politicians (both from leave and remain camps) are inclined to drive such a change in the above mentioned balance in UK? To me looking from outside UK is the closest to US (in contrast to continental Europe and especially Nordics) in terms of favoring capital over labour... I might be wrong though...
 
valdas said:
Now I disagree. 🙂 Why they were coming to Sweden and not Finland? Because Sweden decided to have the benefit system for immigrants that was very lucrative. EU did not force it.
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One can argue that the benefits in Sweden are too generous. But it was a system designed for our own demands. We also used to treat all people here the same, we have no second grade citizens. The medical insurance and all social benefits used to be equal, regardless of your background. If you lived permanently here it was the same.

But that was changed yesterday in our parliament, now only time limited visas are issued. If you want to bring your family here, you have to be able to support them. We will not give them social welfare....

This is one of the drawbacks with EU. If one country treats its citizens better than the others, it will attract people. It means that an equilibrium is reached when everybody is equally poor...🙁

Open borders will not work in EU (or anywhere else) when some countries are poor and others are rich.

As we say in Sweden: "Equal friends play best...! (Lika vänner leka bäst!)".
 
Borge H said:
Many of the former eastern countries, like Hungary, accepts no immigrants. EU tries to make them change their views. It is narrow minded of them, as many of us remember the refugees from communism.🙄
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you call it narrow minded, but maybe they think it realism. current East European politicians still remember life under Moscow's boot and don't assume welfare state an automatic outcome, that once achieved will last forever.
 
Borge H said:
But that was changed yesterday in our parliament, now only time limited visas are issued. If you want to bring your family here, you have to be able to support them. We will not give them social welfare....

This is one of the drawbacks with EU. If one country treats its citizens better than the others, it will attract people. It means that an equilibrium is reached when everybody is equally poor...🙁
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Well, you see, you contradict yourself - you state that your parliament has just decided of not giving some benefits to someone without permanent residenship, but then you still say that if one country treats its citizens better than the others, it will attract people. The decision to deny some benefits locally to the family members of newcomeres was upheld by the European Court of Justice, meaning that local politicians have all the tools of control (if they want to use it).
 
David Hughes said:
Hi,

Two interesting points in this;

1, "Islam is a religion of peace" and so for that matter is Christianity but a lot of mainly Muslim countries have been bombed in the last few years and mainly led by Christian America. They probably think they are defending themselves.

In a nutshell, attacking a foreign soldier in your country seems to me to be defence. But we call it terrorism...

2, As for "planted bombs in the tube or on buses" we dropped them from bombers flying over the towns or villages. And we shelled them. And someone decided to say Muslims were behind the 9/11 attacks but I would have named the country the plotters came from and their financiers etc.

At the time I wondered why something as vague as "Muslims" was blamed I now think it was a cover up. For consistency it would be like calling the Mexican immigrants and drug lords Catholics, or the Nazis for that matter.

Sometimes I think we are looking for scapegoats for our own inadequacies...

Regards, David

PS In hospital for an operation I was told I had the Viking DNA version; I though I was Welsh and "David" is a Jewish name (popular as a Biblical name in Wales) and "Hughes" is an anglicised version of a Norman French name. It's all very confusing. Still, at least I use my real name here.
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1) I don't understand how a British muslim from Leeds is defending himself by conducting a suicide attack on the London tube (2005), can you enlighten me? We are not talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Regarding Christianity, it took 500 years of religious wars and three or four bloody revolutions to put them at their place and enjoy the religious freedom of Western Europe, it appears that many European born muslims don't get the concept of "secular government" that well.

2) That was a war and the British didn't bomb their own fellow citizens. Not the Germans for the matter.

So...again...what are precisely talking about?

I thought I was talking about the failure of the UK (or France for the matter) to integrate certain people with certain religious background that today cannot be attacked otherwise "you're racist" while for the Brexit campaign is perfectly fine to depict the Europeans as the "enemy" without any accusation of discrimination, but perhaps I'm wrong.
 
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