British article on Leica troubles

when digital matures, leica can make digital cameras that'll last forever. by then, maybe everyone would have seen "ghost in the shell" and we can appreciate our electronic wonders just the same as our mechanical ones.

also, i don't see canon or nikon hurting because f-1s or fs were built to such a high standard. it's a problem for leica because the majority of their markets can't afford their new products. i would think the ranks of rangefinder enthusiasts are growing, not shrinking, and hopefully leica will get in on it.
 
We can say that Leica has been unadaptive in their strategy, but Demian nailed it before I could post it- Leica is paying the price for building a quality, lasting product. Their new products are competing with their 30, 40 and 50 year old products. A 40 year old Leica can still take as good a photo as a 2005 Leica. So if you're looking to save a few $$$, then a used Leica is a good alternative. What product made in 1954 can compete with its modern day sample side-by-side? A car? No. A television? No. Other than a manual can-opener, I don't know. The fact that they can't build a less expensive product in 2005 is not totally their fault.
 
Perhaps Cosina will be able to buy out Leica. Then we could have a Bessa M-# model.

Eventually we all got used to Contax's being made by Yashica/Kyocera.

-Paul
 
IIIC user and proud of it.

IIIC user and proud of it.

Leica began by making useful tools for actual photographers.

It's degenerated to making fashion accessories, concept pieces. Check the photos on the Leica forum at photo.net....a lower order of work than you'll see on other forums. :bang:
 
It'd be a marketing mistake to try to keep Leica's corpse upright...the brand will be worth more in the future, raised up nostalgically from the grave, than it is now.

Russians are smart and still struggling with the middle twentieth century, Leica's heyday...they could tool up a little tighter and make superb $500 M4s with Summacrons...
 
I disagree with two earlier ideas and make these rebuttals:

1) Leicas first started selling bigtime to American servicemen in Europe and Occupied Germany, like Canon did in Occupied Japan. They were dirt cheap because of the exchange rate ( My parents bought a NEW Volkswagen in the US in 1959 for $1000).

2) Hippie photogs like me owned Leicas in the early Seventies, when a NEW VW Rabbit cost $3500..an excellent used M2 body could be had in San Francisco for $400...twice the price of a funky-but-healthy used black Nikon F. I know because I made those purchases. For context, a typical American middle class income might have been around $15K / yr back then, and the rent I'd split with the girlfriend was around $500 for a huge 3-bedroom Victorian flat in San Francisco.

3) Leicas are worn for subtle flash. They are the ultimate in male showing-off. We/they want our cameras to be noticed by other sophisticates, we're not trying to impress the rubes and dumbest blondes with diamond Rolexes...unless we're Texans 🙂
 
djon said:
I disagree with two earlier ideas and make these rebuttals:

3) Leicas ....... are the ultimate in male showing-off. We/they want our cameras to be noticed by other sophisticates, we're not trying to impress the rubes and dumbest blondes with diamond Rolexes...unless we're Texans 🙂

Yeah, we Texans are a flashy bunch, especially me with my 69 VW Bus and 1950 "a la carte edition" Leica IIIf. As for the blondes, las guerras are mas trouble than they are worth. South Texas ladies are more down to earth.
 
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djon said:
3) Leicas are worn for subtle flash. They are the ultimate in male showing-off. We/they want our cameras to be noticed by other sophisticates, we're not trying to impress the rubes and dumbest blondes with diamond Rolexes...unless we're Texans 🙂

Djon, I think you're being unfairly harsh to Leica owners and users. I'm sure there must somewhere be a few Leica owners for whom it's a matter of impressing others with the possession rather than the output, but I doubt it's as common as you imply.

It was difficult for me to scrape together the $$$ back in 1967 to get my used M2 for $150 and new 35 Summicron for $163.50, and its purpose was to avoid compromizing the technical quality of pics, not to impress others. I seldom find myself using it among other photogs who'd be impressed anyway. It is not jewelry, and if I ever get a new M it won't be jewelry either. The camera is much more than just a trinket, and suggesting that is grossly understating its usefulness. I have to say it's a little irritating to suffer that suggestion. We hear it from the anti-Leica crew at Photo.net; please not here too!

A couple years later, though, I did get something flashy and impressive that drew a lot of attention and comment; a 1970 Honda CB750. One of the two fastest bikes on the market at the time, and the only 4-cylinder motor. It was candy-blue/green with matching Vetter fairing and luggage box. Still, it was my daily transportation for 9 years, not just for show. People would approach me at the gas station and ask how fast it would go. In fact, it got rather tiresome, getting too much attention. Except from children in cars in traffic; they all knew "good stuff" when they saw it, and I enjoyed waving back at them.
 
Yes, I might be one of those who tape over the engraving and red dot on the front... It is what it is, no need to trumpet it. No need to get rolled and robbed, either. 🙁
 
Locally, which is Austin, Texas - too much flash will cause unwanted attention other by the homeless or security folks checking I.D's at local live music venues. There seems to be a growing trend towards regulating photography on private property.

Flash is relative, too. Yours truly is a retired Puerto Rican, Chinese hippie who just never grew out of old VW Type II's, Casio watches and manual rangefinders among other things. The look is pure Austin and when I visit my home town of Miami, I notice that I'm bit out of step with the current trends on South Beach. Oh well.

Now with regards to the current Leica line-up, I'd love to have an MP with either a .72 or .58 viewfinder, but as Denis wrote they have never been and never will be "volks" cameras. The Bessa R I have is pretty spiffy for me and I'm trying to get used to its newness. The IIIf I just received seems much less flash by comparison. It's small, not noticeable to most folks at first and is a sweet user.
 
Gee! No mention in the article that maybe 8000 bucks for a body and a couple of lenses might be a contributing factor in their financial woes.
 
Leitz’s problem is not that too many people are buying used cameras (and by extension, not that they have, for too long, been building high quality durable products). At a theoretical level, the claim is silly. The value of a product on the secondary market is capitalized in its new price. That is, an important reason that Leitz has for so long been able to command such high prices is that a Leica camera can be resold for a substantial fraction of what it cost new and it will continue to have a high resale value for decades because it has a useful life stretching into decades. Some may object that people don’t really take into account what a camera will sell for in the used market when they decide whether to buy it, but my point doesn’t really depend on that in any important way. It’s just another way of saying that a Leica represents real value – it’s an elegant machine that will give decades of excellent service – and that is why they sell for high prices. The extensive used market, far from being a reason why Leitz is in difficulties now, is an important reason why Leitz has, for so long, been able to sell high quality cameras for a price that fully reflects their value.

If you don’t like theoretical explanations, here’s a practical one. Look at the “How old are you” thread. Many of us are thirty, forty, fifty years old but *still* own no cameras younger than us (I’m thirty seven and own one camera younger than I am – a Contax G2 – and several older than I am – Crown Graphic, Minox B, Rolleiflex 2.8f, Hasselblad 500C). The used market, that is, has been around for a long, long time. It doesn’t look substantially different today than it did before many of us were born. In 1967 there were a lot of used Leicas on the market and a thriving trade in them. Today, there are a lot of used Leicas on the market and a thriving trade in them. Why is it a problem only now? How is it that something that hasn’t changed (the used market) explains something that has (the Leitz bottom line)? It doesn’t.

A better explanation is not that the used market is thriving, but that it may not continue to do so. As I said, a Leica is an elegant machine that is capable of giving decades of excellent service. But the rapid rise in the quality of digital processes has put a question mark over film’s future. I’m not saying that film will ever go away completely, just that in the future, film will no longer be used for many things it was used for in the past. As a result, there is reason to doubt the scope of the future used market for Leica cameras (it will certainly continue to exist, but it won’t be the same secondary market that Leicas have benefited from for so many years). The rapid rise in quality of digital cameras has put the same question mark over a digital body’s fate – you don’t buy a digital camera today knowing that you or someone else will still be using it forty years from now, you buy it knowing that it will be obsolete in two or three years. In such a climate, you can’t get from the market the same return on a product capable of being used for decades as you could if people knew they would use it for decades.

There is some hope, of course, demonstrated by products like the R-D1. The future of the M body may be in doubt, but there’s no reason that the future of the M lens need be. I think those who have suggested that Leitz may have a bright future concentrating on high quality optics make an excellent point.
 
A new M3 or M4 used to sell for what the new Zeiss Ikon is going to sell for, about $1700. Nowadays, the M7 and MP cost about $2900. Leica needs to wake up. They're not selling many new cameras because they're antiquated and cost too much. It's not surprising more people buy used equipment, even if it's overpriced by 200%.
 
Leica does need to evolve, but it sounds like they know it, based on what they're trying to do with the DMR
and the digital M.

I don't think it's a question any longer of whether or not they realize that they need to respond to the new market,
but rather one of how quickly they CAN respond, and how they will differentiate themselves from their
competition.
 
Leica will live.

Look at harley davidson motor cycles.
They are in the same league.
- Old fashioned design
- few new models, and these are evolutions of the old ones.
- Extremely expensive compared to competition
- According to ehthousiasts, the best cycles in the world.
(according to others over prices toys for dentists)
- Tailoring to a niche market.

They had their financial problems, ups and downs,
But are over 100 years in business!

mac boy
 
The Perils of Excellence

The Perils of Excellence

The problem is that Leica made its RF cameras all to well. An M3 today is as good, if properly cared for, as an M3 50 years ago. If Leica had put planned obsolescence into its cameras maybe it would be doing better. But may be not.

Yes, Leica ownship put you into a brotherhood and sisterhood. "We few, we lucky few" and all that. I live in Japan and I know the level of Leica mania here. Useless to cover the red dot with black tape. Everyone knows you have a Leica.

All that said, I think blaming the shooters of vintage Leica is a bit tacky. You know Blats, Nikons and Volvos last and last. They seem to be doing okay.

If crass commercialism cannot save Leica, Leica ought to become a part of some sort of German national trust. Let Leica become a semi-nationalized or nationalized enterprise. Then profit margins need not be so important. My model is the university press. University presses do not have to create mega-bestsellers. For this reason they go for quality. They do not remainder their books quickly. And, though they are technically non-profit, they actually (often to their embarrassment) produce well-selling books. Leica is a German national treasure and ought to be preserved as such.
 
In 50 years, basically all they've changed was put in a light meter and aperture priority ae. I call it "obsolescence by un-obsolescence".
 
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