Bronica ETRS(i) or Mamiya M645?

[kuzano]

Re: Mamiya leaf shutter lenses....

Re: Mamiya leaf shutter lenses....

The leaf shutter lenses for the Mamiya 645 require a dual cable shutter release that is very hard to find. You set the camera body for 1/8 second and set the lens for the desired shutter speed. Without the special cable, the leaf shutter lens is pretty useless. I have one... have never used it and can't sell it. The dual cable release must actuate the two shutters, body and lens, at the same time.

Re: lens quality, I never found the Bronica Zenza lenses any lesser quality than the Mamiya Sekor. The Bronica ETRsi camera is much lighter than the early M645 cameras and a bit smaller.

There seems to be a bit more inventory in the market for Bronica, but I shot both systems for some time, and ended up favoring the Bronica system. Flash synch was a major decision point. Effectively there is not a real leaf shutter option for Mamiya, unless you have the special, near non existant cable.

There is one other point favoring the Bronica. If you can find one, and if you step up on price, there is a 35mm panoramic back for the Bronica ETR series. It runs the film horizontally for a 24X56 pano, much like the Hasselblad/Fuji 35mm pano. I would again buy a Bronica ETR series if I had one of those backs, since I now do a lot of Pano. However, I won't pony up $2000 for the Hassy/Fuji 35mm pano camera.

I see the Bronica 135W film back 3-4 times a year, for around $300-400.

 

[sevo]

The leaf shutter lenses for the Mamiya 645 require a dual cable shutter release that is very hard to find.

No. It is a bit more complex than that - the oldest and most widespread, the 70/2.8, does not need a separate release, it is triggered by the aperture actuator. But it needs to be manually cocked by twisting the front ring, and the camera has to be set to 1/8 or slower to let the leaf shutter have precedence.

IIRC there also was a later series of maybe two or three leaf shutter lenses that are intended to be cocked and released through a umbilical cord connection to the second generation of ProTL motor drives (which, see below, seem to fall back to the behaviour of the 70mm on older cameras), and similar lenses for the M645 AFD. The latter are not supposed to work in any other configuration, the described might be a workaround to run them all-manual nonetheless.

 

[Spanik]

I do have a 55mm leaf shutter lens for my camera. It works fine without a dual release and without the umbilical cord.

You can use it manually, by cocking it with the ring at the front of the lens and then it works automatically if you put the camera slower than 1/8s as it is actuated by the diaphragm lever. If you use the umbilical cord with the WG401 (?) grip, then the cocking is motorised and powered by the grip.

If you need a dual release, Pentacon made one to be used when you do macro with and inverted lens. They had an adaptor ring that actuated the diaphragm.

 

[sevo]

I do have a 55mm leaf shutter lens for my camera. It works fine without a dual release and without the umbilical cord.

Good to hear. That ought to mean that only the AF series lenses are incompatible.

 

[jamais]

I have used the ETRSi with five lenses for more than two years as my main camera. I love the build quality of the camera and the rendering of the lenses. It is a great system. But the one 24x54 back I tried turned out to be not that reliable.
Do you prefer very fast lenses or focal plane shutter? Buy one of the Mamiya 645's. Otherwise you can't go wrong with the Bronica.

 

[kuzano]

Thanks...

Thanks...

I do have a 55mm leaf shutter lens for my camera. It works fine without a dual release and without the umbilical cord.

You can use it manually, by cocking it with the ring at the front of the lens and then it works automatically if you put the camera slower than 1/8s as it is actuated by the diaphragm lever. If you use the umbilical cord with the WG401 (?) grip, then the cocking is motorised and powered by the grip.

If you need a dual release, Pentacon made one to be used when you do macro with and inverted lens. They had an adaptor ring that actuated the diaphragm.

Good to know... thanks for that. I have a 70mm Mamiya 645 Leaf lens, and I have never been able to get it to work.

 

[efix]

Thanks for your input, everyone! I am watching a Bronica ETRS w/ 120 back and 75/2.8 lens and an M645 1000s with 80/2.8 lens right now. Both with metered prism finder, but the M645 also has an extra waist level finder. Both are in good condition according to the repsective seller. We'll see which one I'll end up with 🙂

 

[sevo]

Good to know... thanks for that. I have a 70mm Mamiya 645 Leaf lens, and I have never been able to get it to work.

Just dug out mine. Quick how-to: Set it to A on the tiny tab next to the cable release socket, set a time (between 1/500 and 1/30) on the front ring, cock it with the cocking tabs right behind the front ring, check that the camera shutter is to a time longer than 1/30, and release. To bypass the leaf shutter, set the time ring on lens to F and cock the lens. The cable release is only needed in M/MU mode, which operates like the mirror unlock mode on the RB/RZ, and with the same double cable release (or by releasing the camera, set to B, on the body, holding down the camera release knob until you have tripped the lens shutter cable release).

 

[RObert Budding]

I'd go with the Bronica because of the leaf shutters (leaf shutters on the Mamiya are a real kludge). As for lens quality - the later Bronica lenses are very nice. You'll see a huge improvement over 35mm when factoring in lesser enlargement.

 

[kuzano]

Early M model 645 Mamiya.. no mid roll changes...

Early M model 645 Mamiya.. no mid roll changes...

Mamiya in the "tank" M model 645s used film inserts... no removable backs. you can preload and carry inserts but once they are in the camera, no mid roll changes. The next model, the Super had issues in the electronics of the shutter. I experience two bad ones.

The next evolusion of the Mamiya 645 was the Pro, and was a good camera, AND the first Mamiya 645 with a fully removable film back and dark slide for mid roll changes. Mid roll changing was not really an issue for me. Usually shot full rolls when I was using Mamiya's.

The Bronica's... ETR, ETRS, and ETRSi all used fully removable/dark slide type backs. There were single latch backs and double latch backs. They were all fine for me, but references show a preference for the dual latch backs.

 

[ruby.monkey]

Don't forget the ETRC - also restricted to film inserts, but it might offer a cheap route to ETRS-level Bronica love.

 

[Spanik]

The next evolusion of the Mamiya 645 was the Pro, and was a good camera, AND the first Mamiya 645 with a fully removable film back and dark slide for mid roll changes.

The Super was the first one with removable backs and mid-roll change. As a fact, it uses the same backs as the Pro/ProTL. Th inserts inside the removable backs are the same as used in the older series 645.

The problematic electronics of the Super is an often returning point. So far I haven't had any issues.

 

[pdh]

The Bronica ETRsi camera is much lighter than the early M645 cameras and a bit smaller.

Really?

I'm also sniffing around after a 645-format camera and it was my impression that the M645J was pretty much the most compact of the "boxy" types.

Having said that, it is hard to get a sense without handling them, and it's difficult to find either except online these days

 

[ruby.monkey]

Put a waist-level finder and an 80mm f/2.8 on it, and the Mamiya 645 Pro is a compact little package. Even the earlier M645 series are reasonably small in that configuration.

 

[slappyfin3]

sorry for the shameless plug (moderator please delete this if it's inappropriate)

if the poster, or anyone on this forum for that matter, is interested in a Mamiya 645 1000s I have one with the 80mm 1.9 lens and a waist-level finder that I'm thinking of selling. Let me know if you're interested!

 

[Spanik]

The M645J with nothing else than the waist level viewfinder is the lightest of the whole Mamiya 645 range. If you want a prism then the 645E is the lightest option but you loose the option of changing the viewfinder and back.

 

[Evanjoe610]

I agree that the Mamiya 645 and the 1000S were TANKs in its quality built and weight. With the eyelevel prism (Not the meter version) and the removable WLF, it is a superb beginner camera body that has a straight path for future upgrades to the Mamiya 645 Pro.

If you must have flash synch at all shutter speed, then the Bronica ERTSi is the way top go. My brother-in-law has the Bronica ERTSi with 3 lenses. He was pleasd with this option and also with the removable back. I sold a 3 lens setup for a Hassleblad 500CM to him and he never touched the Bronica ERTSi again.

In the end, the final decision you made will have to last you till you have additional cash in the future to either upgrade or go onto another system.

Sometime in near term future some thoughts to ponder: if you continue with a Mamiya 645 system, the better lenses available are the 35mm N, 50mm Shift, 80mmF1.9, 110mmF2.8, 145mm SF, 150mmF2.8 N, and the 200mmF2.8.

Mamiya in the "tank" M model 645s used film inserts... no removable backs. you can preload and carry inserts but once they are in the camera, no mid roll changes. The next model, the Super had issues in the electronics of the shutter. I experience two bad ones.

The next evolusion of the Mamiya 645 was the Pro, and was a good camera, AND the first Mamiya 645 with a fully removable film back and dark slide for mid roll changes. Mid roll changing was not really an issue for me. Usually shot full rolls when I was using Mamiya's.

The Bronica's... ETR, ETRS, and ETRSi all used fully removable/dark slide type backs. There were single latch backs and double latch backs. They were all fine for me, but references show a preference for the dual latch backs.

 

[Spanik]

Sometime in near term future some thoughts to ponder: if you continue with a Mamiya 645 system, the better lenses available are the 35mm N, 50mm Shift, 80mmF1.9, 110mmF2.8, 145mm SF, 150mmF2.8 N, and the 200mmF2.8.

I find that a strange selection. Probably because it isn't really my range of focal lengths (the long ones). But I'll consider them as "to look out for" on your recommendation.

 

[efix]

The Mamiya 645 1000s it is. Got a very good deal on it.

 

[Peter_wrote:]

congrats! have a lot of fun!