Bruce GIlden's Kakuza photo

[.ken]

Gilden also has a multimedia work on the Magnum web site about Foreclosures and the people who lost their houses. It's very interactive and true to being a photographer and a journalist. He definitely talked to these people and created a relationship so he could tell their stories the way it's intended.

 

[rogue_designer]

playing the contrarian here: he's basically admitting the shot was posed, isn't he?

Yes. Or at least recreating a moment he saw originally.

The question is, did he present it as otherwise? Does it matter?

 

[abenner]

Does it matter if it was posed? Sure. I think less of it if it as a result.

Gilden is great of course and it's only one shot. But I look at it different, I think. To capture a moment as such is much different than recreating a moment and capturing a (therefore) planned shot. It's not that different of an issue that Capa's dying soldier shot.

I'd like to see the original snap he discusses before having them recreate the moment. Certainly the shot presented is not the first snap, as I doubt he would mention the subsequent shots if it were.

 

[uinku]

Yes. Or at least recreating a moment he saw originally.

The question is, did he present it as otherwise? Does it matter?

If you're talking in the realm of photojournalism ethics, it does matter if he had posed the subjects because the viewer thinks its spontaneous.

"I took a picture with a Leica M6 and a hand-held flash while they were doing it, and then I asked them if they could repeat the gesture and I took three or four more."

What if Cartier-Bresson had asked the guy to jump over the puddle a few more times, or ride that bike through the alleyway?

I'm not trying to cut down Bruce Gilden, but the fact that he's recreating a moment knocks the photograph down a few notches.

 

[kmerenkov]

What if Cartier-Bresson had asked the guy to jump over the puddle a few more times, or ride that bike through the alleyway?

Have you seen his (HCB) contacts? It's like he missed motor drive a lot. Hell of a lot of nearly the same photos.


Though.... yes it was more about portraiture, not about jumping I think.

 

[MichaelW]

Thanks for the link. Unfortunately, it's only a matter of time before a bunch of folks chime in with lunkhead comments about Gilden's work.

How right you were.
He's an excellent photographer & the shot linked to is a great portrait.

 

[uinku]

Have you seen his (HCB) contacts? It's like he missed motor drive a lot. Hell of a lot of nearly the same photos.


Though.... yes it was more about portraiture, not about jumping I think.

Can't say I've seen HCB's contact sheets, but I'm sure he took that many for a reason. Sometimes my frames of the same scene get better the more I shoot because more interesting people move into it.

As for the second bit, you understand what I'm saying.. there's something to be said about posed spontaneity--especially if it's in the context of a documentary photo versus fine art or fashion (where the viewer is expecting some fiction). I agree, it's a good portrait, but I'd leave it at that.

 

[kmerenkov]

As for the second bit, you understand what I'm saying..

Yes, it's just... I wanted to make clear that HCB wasn't the king of spontaneousness and he did posed shots too.
Okay 🙂

 

[Paul T.]

As for the second bit, you understand what I'm saying.. there's something to be said about posed spontaneity--especially if it's in the context of a documentary photo versus fine art or fashion (where the viewer is expecting some fiction). I agree, it's a good portrait, but I'd leave it at that.

Most Magnum photographers would have two (ore more) modes; one is capturing people, or moments. The second is empathy, or working with people.

What makes this photo good is, precisely, that he had to get to know these guys in order to get the photo he wanted. He had to create the moment, before he could capture it. And not being intimidated was probably a part of it.

Gilden ain't my favorite photographer in the world, but it's a pretty tough way to make a living, which commands respect.

 

[Carlsen Highway]

I dont think it really matters that he asked them to do it again. They are Yakuza arnt they? Its a great portrait. He was there they were there...if it turned out that they were actors....thats different. A la Robert Doineaus kissing couple...
What impresses me I suppose is that he was getting along with them well enough to ask them.


AS for HCB's contact sheets - shooting a few pictures of the same scene as it develops (like the kids playing in the rubble scene) is not the same thing as asking a Spanish soldier to pretend it get shot and having a couple of goes at it...

 

[rogue_designer]

I guess my point is that BG didn't present this shot as reportage. It was an informal portrait, and that's all I ever assumed it was.

The fact that he had a rapport with them and asked them to pose a little doesn't detract from the image in that context.

 

[abenner]

Gilden provides a few more comments on the photo on this Magnum blog. Clearly he presents it not as reportage but as an informal portrait, and as such it is wonderful.

 

[Nh3]

When the act of taking the photo is more interesting than the photo itself then we have a case of showmanship and acting not photography.

No matter what you say, Gilden is an entertainer, a showman and a 'character'. His a Weegee clone.

But Weegee was an artist, an innovator and changed photography, where as far as Gilden is concerned once his youtube videos get old, his old news.

 

[dexdog]

I´ve seen those two before!!!😱
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Kray

So, these folks must be the role models for Monty Pythons' Pirhana brothers, Doug and Dinsdale

 

[uinku]

I guess my point is that BG didn't present this shot as reportage. It was an informal portrait, and that's all I ever assumed it was.

The fact that he had a rapport with them and asked them to pose a little doesn't detract from the image in that context.

rogue_designer, not to go about in circles, but let's say your average reader without any background knowledge were to see this in the Trib with an article on the Yakuza. Would he/she assume it was an informal portrait, or a close-up, spontaneous snapshot? That's the slippery slope we're getting to, but it's also in the responsibility of the editorial board to present these images in a unambiguous way.

kmerenkov, I'm interested to know which HCB shots that look spontaneous were posed. If puddle jumper's posed, my entire worldview's is done!

 

[summaron]

Bruce is a great storyteller and good photographer. (Disclaimer: I used to be a casual acquaintance years ago.) I think one of his great influences was Lisette Model, who was not an especially unaggressive street photographer--neither was Diane Arbus or William Klein or Gary Winogrand, but they don't seem to get the flack for it the way he does. Anyway he's extremely empathetic, flexible and he has a real good eye for the strengths and weakenesses of his contemporaries in photograpy. His manner of shooting is a bit bizarre--he takes photographs of people in New York as if he were playing basketball, leaping up and around them in a second. But then to step out into the street in New York is--or used to be--like stepping out onto a basketball court--everyone is in the game and is game.