Buyer beware of M8

Kim Coxon said:
. Now if I really wanted to stir things up, I could say that the humble Pentax K10D had a 100% record so that must be the best camera and look at the saving and the great glass you can get for it. ;) :D :rolleyes:

Kim
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Kim, are the K10D really great? I fell in love with it the moment I held one on display at a camera store....it's the one that I'm now targetting to replace a Canon DSLR which had recently died (shutter stopped working). :p

Jay
 
A bit OT for this forum. If you want I will send a PM with some thoughts and links.

Kim

ZorkiKat said:
Kim, are the K10D really great? I fell in love with it the moment I held one on display at a camera store....it's the one that I'm now targetting to replace a Canon DSLR which had recently died (shutter stopped working). :p

Jay
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In reading that article what struck me is that there were an awful lot more failures than I would expect if those guys were seasoned outdoor photographers. I also thought it was strange that the Mamiya-shooter (the only film shooter in the bunch) evidently checked the bulk of his film in his luggage, although if it isn't common knowledge among photographers that the x-rays they use on checked baggage will destroy film, there are signs to that effect everywhere at the check-in. If one guy could be a doofus, there's no reason more of them couldn't, which might account for the number of cameras they buried at sea :D
 
dcsang said:
I think I must have been the ONLY guy that liked Lee Meriwether as Cat Woman..

Eartha Kitt was too cat like that it was scary !! :eek: :eek:


I think I saw Commissioner Gordon picking up the batphone!!!

Dave
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Lee Meriwether never played Catwoman on the TV show, only in the theatrical movie. Take it from a guy who got the hots for Julie Newmar in "My Living Doll" with Bob Cummings, in black and white, long before Batman--and not in reruns, either :D
 
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ywenz said:
perky, you intention was understood, but your execution was flawed at best. Why start a thread with such a biased subject title? You could have just pointed out the M8's failures from the trip and linked the article. The facts from the article speak for themselves. Instead, you've baited all the M8 protectors into jumping into the thread and voice their defenses in the same intensity as you've wrote the original post.
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A true voice of reason.
 
Ken Tanaka said:
Speaking of "having facts straight" you're severely bending them to fit your defense of the M8.

The facts are:

- According to Michael's report, 50% of the M8 cameras suffered failures. This is more statistically comparable to the five Nikon cameras (which experienced no problems) than it is to the approximately 42 Canon cameras.

- The circumstances of these M8 failures were suggested not to be directly related to weather but rather to manufacturing or design defects.

- Apparently the other 50% of the M8s operated without serious incident.

- Reportedly 11 of the approximately 42 Canon cameras (26%) experienced problems relating to rain. Six of these reportedly recovered leaving a terminal failure rate for Canons of approximately 12%.

Also, this was not a "public cruise ship" but rather a fully chartered expedition boat. All passengers were part of the photo trip. No mention was made of dragging cameras in and out of extreme cold. Even so, in fact, the temperatures throughout the northern latitudes of the U.S. were probably much colder during this period than the average daily temperatures on this trip.

Everyone here knows of your current emotional affinity for your M8; you defend its honor like a deluded dad with a promiscuous daughter. I enjoy mine, too. But I see its current strengths and weaknesses rationally. Mine has performed, mechanically and electronically, reasonably well in its first several weeks although it has experienced a power problem. But the M8 has a long way to go, far beyond what firmware will remedy, to become the reliable and consistent tool that my Canons have been.
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Ken,

I am curious, you are all over the Leica web forums with this.

Not that I really care what anyone else may think about the M8 or spending time quoting totally meaningless stats instead I am totally enjoying my M8s. Imprefect as they are. I have had various cameras fail me over time - including a couple of film Nikon Fs in the deep Artic - such is life. I will say that before I left on any trip cameras were well tested and not right out of the box. If I crossed-threaded a filter I didn't spend a minute complaining about the camera, etc.

I live in Vancouver Canada and the weather here has been both wet and cold - again meaningless - but sofar the M8s are working just fine.

So what exactly is your point? I can assume this forum is here for those of us who are already M8 owners, if you are trying to desuade those people who are thinking of purchasing an M8 on the forum - you should clearly state your intentions and motives for doing so.

Regards. Terry.
 
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Terry,
I think the answer lies in Ted's reply in Post 60 of this thread. ;)

There is a simple answer and that is not to feed the trolls. :rolleyes:

Kim

terrycioni said:
Ken,

I am curious, you are all over the Leica web forums with this.

Regards. Terry.
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terrycioni said:
Ken,

I am curious, you are all over the Leica web forums with this.

Not that I really care what anyone else may think about the M8 or spending time quoting totally meaningless stats instead I am totally enjoying my M8s. Imprefect as they are. I have had various cameras fail me over time - including a couple of film Nikon Fs in the deep Artic - such is life. I will say that before I left on any trip cameras were well tested and not right out of the box. If I crossed-threaded a filter I didn't spend a minute complaining about the camera, etc.

I live in Vancouver Canada and the weather here has been both wet and cold - again meaningless - but sofar the M8s are working just fine.

So what exactly is your point? I can assume this forum is here for those of us who are already M8 owners, if you are trying to desuade those people who are thinking of purchasing an M8 on the forum - you should clearly state your intentions and motives for doing so.

Regards. Terry.
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Terry;
I am not "all over the Leica forum" with this story. Last night I posted a thread titled, "A Poor Record for the M8 in the Antarctic", pointing to Michael's story. The text of my post there was as follows:

'Well, it doesn't look like the M8 should be your main choice for an expedition camera. Michael Reichmann recently returned from his 2007 excursion to penguin country and reports that of four M8 cameras on the trip (one his) three had problems, two of which were terminal.

Having just experienced my first problem (unable to power-up) this strikes a bit of a chord with me."

That's all. I made no follow-up comments. I'd hardly call that "all over the Leica forum", eh? Within approximately two hours the M8 Defense League there had already expanded this thread to two pages. At this writing, approximately 20 hours later, the thread is at 4 pages and still growing. Again, I made no other comments in that thread.

In this thread I merely pointed out that Ted had stretched the actual reported facts of Michael's story, apparently to further his defense of the M8. I restated the facts of the story as it was written.

This qualifies me as a "troll"? That's really a remarkable comment, Kim. Really classy crack.

Having spent a bit more time than normal at the computer recently, and also being a new M8 owner, I've also spent more time than usual looking at M8-related photo forums such as this. Thank you for reminding me that it's a very poor choice of time allocation.
 
"Thank you for reminding me that it's a very poor choice of time allocation."

You are welcome.

I didn't, wouldn't and don't agree with name calling including that ugly word "Troll". So please keep me out of that. I will say this again, the M8 is less then perfect as is Reichmann, luminouslandscapes, and above all me. I am sorry you are having M8 power problems - hopefully Leica will address them quickly.

Regards. Terry.
 
Suddenly I get the feeling that "both sides" of this tale "M8: A Love Story?" is a lot like watching divorce proceedings.

"He" says one thing.
"She" says the exact opposite is true.

Somewhere in betwixt the two lies the truth... and likely that is never to be known unless we were privy to the events that led up to the divorce in the first place.

Same goes for the M8 stuff..

One user can say "it's the best thing since they invented the wheel and it's going to save Leitz et al !!" while the other says "Leitz is doomed because of this pink elephant known as the M8 !!" and the banter will go on and on and on ad infinitum.

The only way any of us without an M8 can really claim that it "sucks" or it's "the bees knees" is to go out there, buy one, use it in the conditions we'd normally use it and decide for ourselves.

Can all you kids please play nice now? :D

Cheerio,
Dave
 
I dont have a problem with Spersky pointing out that digital cameras do not work well when its sub zero temperatures. My only objection is to label the thread "Buyer beware of M8". Perhaps the thread should read "buyer beware of M8 for use in an antarctic expedition", but just as well we could say buyer beware of an M8 for close ups of blast furnaces or large electromagnets. The thread title is yet another unnecessarily allarmist offering and id like to bet its initiator has not got as far as trying out this camera or indeed been on an expedition at sub zero temperatures.

I say "M8 buyer beware of allarmist threads". Read them very carefully and try this wonderful camera out for yourself.
 
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Yeah, I found that kind of trollish as well.

It really boils down to this, the M8 is too new in the grand scheme of things to make a judgement call in regards to the long term, harsh environment type of assignment. But the Canon cams, wow, what a doozy of bad PR for the much heralded "Seals".

Example, many gear heads love to say how the 5D does not have weather sealing and the 1-series does. That would be true and the seals on the 1-series are a bit of a help, but not a fix all.

Well then....it is not as sealed as they think it is and if you sit around in the rain, snow or mist thinking you have a diving bell of a camera, you WILL get bit, period. I just have to laugh at how many amateurs and even some pros just tout weather sealing as the second coming. It is *SO* not.

You see, I shoot in the foulest of the foul weather for a living, -35 to 130, dust, rain, tons of snow and high altitudes. In 97 I was using my new F5 in a rain storm and just let er' drip. After about 30 minutes, the readouts started to wig out pretty bad. I had to quit for the day and let the camera dry out in the film drying cabinet overnight.

In contrast, I just got done doing a 4 day stock shoot in very heavy snow and some very cold temps, -10 at sunrise at 12,500 feet up. I used a pair of 5D's and kept them protected and maintained in terms of exposure. I did not miss a single shot in having to go the extra mile to protect them.

I can not emphasize enough how lame some of the arguments in favor of weather sealing are. They simply have no clue if they think they are immune to failure because of thier much lauded weather sealing. And as for the folks that claim that they have never had a failure even in heavy rain, it is just a matter of time before they do.

It will fail, they all do if you just stand out there in the rain getting soaked and think you are the king of the world.

Weather sealing is a minor advantage of one camera over another. If you abuse it and do not protect your gear, it WILL FAIL!!!

I for one think that the 1-series cams failed due to one of or both of two things:

1. Too much moisture over the entire camera and lens.

2. No protection while changing lenses, batteries or CF cards.

Weather seals do not seal, they marginally prevent. That is it, nothing more.

Reality has finally smacked pompous "Seal-heads" in the face.....about time.


Sailor Ted said:
SEVERAL cameras failed due to the fact it was COLD outside and WARM inside the ship. You can't very well leave your camera in a cold but dry location on a PUBLIC cruse ship due to THEFT so in they went with predictable results- so much for the Canon's weather sealing. The interesting point is that the OP grossly overstated the Leica failure and did not mention the Canon failures- in fact he intimated just the opposite. This of course is only interesting until you research the OP's past posting history. This post was put forth as typical flame bait and is resulting in the typical flame war.

PS. One M8 (perhaps two) were brand-new and this camera does suffer from EFR (early failure rate). Had these cameras been pre-tested for an initial 1000 exposures I am certain they would have shown their issues, been replaced by Leica, and then all the M8's would have performed as well as the M8 that was shot in all types of weather with no ill effect, as has been my experience with my M8.
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Terry: As I've noted several times here and elsewhere I've actually not had the serious problems with my M8 that so many others have reported. One power issue thus far, aside from unpredictable white balance (common to everyone's M8). I've been generally impressed with its cold weather stamina. I'm not asking Leica to fix anything.

Dave: I think by now you get the general idea of what you could expect from an M8. It's neither superlative nor abysmal. It is a camera with a character all its own, capable of recording many types of scenes marvelously. But it also has some disappointing quirks. It's most definitely not a Canon, Nikon, Pentax, or even a Casio.

You should consider taking the M8 plunge today if:

- You are already invested in expensive M lenses which spend most of their time in a drawer because you've largely abandoned your film M and didn't find the R-D1 appealing.

- The amount of $4,795 is readily at-hand and not a significant sum for you to spend on something so frivolous.

- Your livelihood does not depend an M8.

Anyone who does not meet these conditions should strongly consider waiting a year before taking the M8 plunge. If Leica is still making the M8 in 2008 they're very likely to be much more consistent and reliable cameras.

That's all I can say.

BTW, I normally do "get along".
 
Sailor Ted said:
PS. One M8 (perhaps two) were brand-new and this camera does suffer from EFR (early failure rate). Had these cameras been pre-tested for an initial 1000 exposures I am certain they would have shown their issues, been replaced by Leica, and then all the M8's would have performed as well as the M8 that was shot in all types of weather with no ill effect, as has been my experience with my M8.
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One could come to the wrong expectation that a $5K camera from a manufacturer known for his sturdy cameras can be bought and used without preliminary testing. You know, with all these reports from warphotographers and arctic expeditions which were only possible with Leicas and such.

On the other hand, I've never been to the southern hemisphere and the coldest weather where I shot was north of the norther polar circle at the Lofotes. The Gouvernment Issue Contax RTS as well as my personal Rollei 35TE where both fine below -20°C. So I would have expected the M8 to perform in those conditions without failure.
 
dcsang said:
Oh man.. i better get to the gym then.. I just recalled how tight Yvonne Craig's outfit was.. I'm going to have to shimmy into those tights before hopping on the my Bat Motorcycle!!


Sveltely,
Dave
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Dave, is this outfit supposed to be purple?

SCNR:D
 
Socke said:
One could come to the wrong expectation that a $5K camera from a manufacturer known for his sturdy cameras can be bought and used without preliminary testing. You know, with all these reports from warphotographers and arctic expeditions which were only possible with Leicas and such.

On the other hand, I've never been to the southern hemisphere and the coldest weather where I shot was north of the norther polar circle at the Lofotes. The Gouvernment Issue Contax RTS as well as my personal Rollei 35TE where both fine below -20°C. So I would have expected the M8 to perform in those conditions without failure.
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I don't expect any digital camera to be as rugged as my M6. Perhaps my expectations are not as high as they should be and that's why I'm so happy with my M8. Then again perhaps my expectations are spot on.

Some people are half empty, others half full (not aimed at anyone in particular just an observation regarding human nature)
 
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I was hoping the "Stop It Now" thread from the moderators was going to cool all this bickering. But it reads just like it did four months ago.

Guys, on both sides, step back and look at how childish this all is... Really.
 
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