jtlns
Member
Hi all,
After some time with a Leica IIIf, M2 & M6 if feel te urge to explore the world of digital full frame cameras. (my day-to-day kit is M4/3)
I nailed down my full frame choices to:
- Leica M 240: I can reuse my Summicron 50mm and Voigtlander 35mm f2.5
- Sony A7 II: I guess better specs, more modern than the M 240, but I'd need to invest in some new lenses to get optimal results
For now my preference goes to the M 240, since I really love the rangefinder system/experience; it makes you slow down and really enjoy photography. But in terms of picture quality, can it compete with the newer Sony full frame bodies? Am I crazy to spend quite some extra $$$ on the M?
I have my eye on a one (mint) for $4000 (in Europe).
Suppose I'd go for the M 240, what would be the things I need to check when picking up the camera? What are the things that typically fail?
Thanks!!
Jan
After some time with a Leica IIIf, M2 & M6 if feel te urge to explore the world of digital full frame cameras. (my day-to-day kit is M4/3)
I nailed down my full frame choices to:
- Leica M 240: I can reuse my Summicron 50mm and Voigtlander 35mm f2.5
- Sony A7 II: I guess better specs, more modern than the M 240, but I'd need to invest in some new lenses to get optimal results
For now my preference goes to the M 240, since I really love the rangefinder system/experience; it makes you slow down and really enjoy photography. But in terms of picture quality, can it compete with the newer Sony full frame bodies? Am I crazy to spend quite some extra $$$ on the M?
I have my eye on a one (mint) for $4000 (in Europe).Suppose I'd go for the M 240, what would be the things I need to check when picking up the camera? What are the things that typically fail?
Thanks!!
Jan
Borge H
Established
I have both a M9 and a M (240). The M is larger than M9 and has a larger battery.
Known problems with Leica M has been loose strap-holders on the camera on the earlier copies. Leica changed them free of charge. I have also read about banding and sensor faults on the Leica forum. But be sure to wear a hard hat if you ask Leica critical questions there. The retired dentists do not like any Leica non-believers.
Also check that the focusing mechanism is OK. Many people like to shoot with open aperture. If the focusing mechism is off it will be problems. You can check it with the live-view funtion. The mechanism is a mechanical link from the lens to the finder which can be adjusted with a screw. Do not do this yourself, it is easy to damage the camera. Send it in to Leica. There is no known way to check the number actutations, like on the M9.
If I would buy a second hand Leica I would go for the M9, it is a very nice camera. If you do not need the video capabilities and live view, why buy a M? If the CCD-sensor in M9 degrades Leica will change it free of charge.
I have considered Sony A7, but I mainly use wide angle lenses. And they will not give as good result as on a Leica M or M9 according to test. Besides, it is nice to use a Leica...
Known problems with Leica M has been loose strap-holders on the camera on the earlier copies. Leica changed them free of charge. I have also read about banding and sensor faults on the Leica forum. But be sure to wear a hard hat if you ask Leica critical questions there. The retired dentists do not like any Leica non-believers.
Also check that the focusing mechanism is OK. Many people like to shoot with open aperture. If the focusing mechism is off it will be problems. You can check it with the live-view funtion. The mechanism is a mechanical link from the lens to the finder which can be adjusted with a screw. Do not do this yourself, it is easy to damage the camera. Send it in to Leica. There is no known way to check the number actutations, like on the M9.
If I would buy a second hand Leica I would go for the M9, it is a very nice camera. If you do not need the video capabilities and live view, why buy a M? If the CCD-sensor in M9 degrades Leica will change it free of charge.
I have considered Sony A7, but I mainly use wide angle lenses. And they will not give as good result as on a Leica M or M9 according to test. Besides, it is nice to use a Leica...
jtlns
Member
Thanks for the tips!
I'm considering a M 240 since it's newer (so it probably holds it's value better), and I assumed the image quality would be better compared to the M9.
Jan
I'm considering a M 240 since it's newer (so it probably holds it's value better), and I assumed the image quality would be better compared to the M9.
Jan
Borge H
Established
The CCD-sensor in M9 is more like Kodachrome-film from earlier times (it is a Kodak sensor) than the CMOS sensor in M (240), which has varmer, more yellow colors.
An other difference is the number of pixels 18 in M9 and 24 MB i M. But I think the higher ISO in M is more important quality. You will not see any major difference between 18 and 24 MB.
But with the possibility to check the acuations in M9, the sensor guarantee and the color reproduction in a CCD-sensor I would reconsider a M9 instead of a M. Especially as many say that a new M is coming this autumn. The second hand prices for a M will then probably be lower. I guess the M9 will not drop as much...
An other difference is the number of pixels 18 in M9 and 24 MB i M. But I think the higher ISO in M is more important quality. You will not see any major difference between 18 and 24 MB.
But with the possibility to check the acuations in M9, the sensor guarantee and the color reproduction in a CCD-sensor I would reconsider a M9 instead of a M. Especially as many say that a new M is coming this autumn. The second hand prices for a M will then probably be lower. I guess the M9 will not drop as much...
bobby_novatron
Photon Collector
Never owned a M9, but I have enjoyed my M 240 the past couple of years. I previously shot Canon dSLRs for a long time, so I consider myself a refugee from the Japanese SLR camp. I'll try to throw my 2 cents in before the dentists swarm in and attack...
PROS:
It's a robust camera, with very good low-light performance, reliable colour rendering, and that indescribable "Leica" heft to it.
It feels like an extremely-well made German piece of technology -- which it is.
Controls are simple and well-placed (once you get used to the way they're organized).
LiveView comes in extremely handy for focus confirmation, especially in wide-open shots.
Battery life is pretty good, if not great.
The Movie Mode is there if you need it, but most LeicaPhiles pretend it's not there.
The LED internal framelines are very bright, and can be adjusted for RED or WHITE, depending on your preference.
I could go on -- and there's lots of other people around here who have given their opinions on the M9 / M240 debate. But here's my CONS for the record:
The mysterious "CHECK BATTERY AGE" error. WTF? I heard Leica was working on a fix for this, but it's an annoyance. Also, no generic / 3rd party batteries are available for the M 240, so battery purchases are expen$ive.
Focus can shift on the optical finder -- off to Wetzlar.
Sensor can develop problems from dust / fibers that cannot be removed -- off to Wetzlar.
*** But overall I have been very happy with the M 240. Best of luck with your decision!
PROS:
It's a robust camera, with very good low-light performance, reliable colour rendering, and that indescribable "Leica" heft to it.
It feels like an extremely-well made German piece of technology -- which it is.
Controls are simple and well-placed (once you get used to the way they're organized).
LiveView comes in extremely handy for focus confirmation, especially in wide-open shots.
Battery life is pretty good, if not great.
The Movie Mode is there if you need it, but most LeicaPhiles pretend it's not there.
The LED internal framelines are very bright, and can be adjusted for RED or WHITE, depending on your preference.
I could go on -- and there's lots of other people around here who have given their opinions on the M9 / M240 debate. But here's my CONS for the record:
The mysterious "CHECK BATTERY AGE" error. WTF? I heard Leica was working on a fix for this, but it's an annoyance. Also, no generic / 3rd party batteries are available for the M 240, so battery purchases are expen$ive.
Focus can shift on the optical finder -- off to Wetzlar.
Sensor can develop problems from dust / fibers that cannot be removed -- off to Wetzlar.
*** But overall I have been very happy with the M 240. Best of luck with your decision!
brennanphotoguy
Well-known
I think the M240 is a happy medium between usable at ISOs up to 6400 and IQ. The M9 is a great camera but you can find M240s for under $4k pretty easily now. I guess it really depends on what you need out of the camera. The M9 is a great camera if you have a lot of batteries, can get past the **** screen, don't need liveview (matters if you plan on having flexibility in certain "work" situations), has the sensor replaced and don't need to shoot above ISO 1600 in color. If you need a camera that has good battery life, more usable high ISO, and liveview for those certain situations then you're really limited to the M240. If you don't need live view but need the other stuff you could always get a brand spankin' new M262.
Borge H
Established
Solved. I had that also. Update yor software in the camera to the latest and the bug will disappear!
yoyo22
Well-known
Check the sensor for scratches:
Bring a Notebook with a card reader. Take a photo of an evenly lit white surface, out of focus with the smallest fstop. Then open the DNG on the notebook and carefully inspect the image for scratches on the sensor. The solarization filter in Photoshop helps highlighting any imperfections.
Bring a Notebook with a card reader. Take a photo of an evenly lit white surface, out of focus with the smallest fstop. Then open the DNG on the notebook and carefully inspect the image for scratches on the sensor. The solarization filter in Photoshop helps highlighting any imperfections.
rscheffler
Well-known
Depends on how you shoot, what you expect in a camera, and I would also say to some extent, where you live in the world.
You have Leica rangefinder experience, so you can check a used M240 in many ways similarly to a film camera to ensure it's operational, i.e. checking shutter speeds, rangefinder accuracy, but you get the results immediately on the camera without needing to shoot and process a roll of film. You'll want to do test shots at various aperture settings and check the results to see if there are any obvious sensor defects. It's typical to have black spots on images due to dust on the sensor. If using a blower bulb (or wet cleaning) doesn't dislodge the dust, or if there are signs of scratches on the sensor glass (straight, sharp-edged lines) that don't look like hair, you'll want to move on as it would require costly sensor replacement to eliminate (or a lot of retouching later).
In respect to the M240 vs. the M9... again it will depend on your expectations. The M240 is a considerable operational refinement over the M9 with many fewer 'digital quirks' that can pop up during use. For example with the M9, if you shoot prolifically and tend to fill the buffer (IIRC it takes about 7 shots to do so), then force it to show the images it just shot while it's cleaning the buffer, and maybe also try to zoom in on an image... it can lock up the camera and/or result in banding artifacts in the images being written to the card. The M240 with the latest firmware versions is a lot more stable, particularly with the latest firmware. Battery is much bigger and battery life is considerably better than the M9. Overall size is NOT larger. It's something like 1mm larger, but it has a thumb rest that sticks out a bit at the back that probably makes some feel it's bigger, beefier. Maybe it is a bit heavier. That said, the M240's 24MP vs. the M9's 18 does not make a considerable difference (I have both and have tested for this). Sure, the M240 resolves slightly more, but in practical use, it's not often noticeable. More people go on about the CCD vs. CMOS sensor characteristics. IMO, also over exaggerated. You can tweak each in post to render very similarly to the other. Of course, if you prefer not to, then out of camera characteristics will have more sway in such a comparison. But the M240 definitely has a broader dynamic range that tolerates highlight clipping somewhat better than the M9 and results in image files that are quite pliable after the fact (the M9 is very good for lifting shadows, but highlights will clip very quickly in high contrast scenes).
The a7II is a completely different animal. First of all, many people rave about Sony and their sensors. Fact is the M240's sensor is very competitive. Both are 24MP. Both have very similar dynamic range, color quality, etc. The a7II will be a better live view camera, since that is the way you have to use it. But it will also burn through batteries a lot faster. The user interface and feel of the camera while shooting will be a lot different, too. IMO, the Sony cameras feel like computers made to resemble cameras (so much menu diving through horrible menu systems to access various settings), whereas the M240 (and M9) very closely follow Leica M tradition in basic photographic functionality, yet happen to be digital. You should be able to pick up a digital M and shoot with it easily, even if your only prior experience was film rangefinders. Also, the Sony a7 series cameras do not necessarily work well with many rangefinder lenses. This is particularly true with lenses 35mm and wider where the physical effects of the Sony sensor designs can result in degraded image sharpness at the image periphery, particularly as focus approaches infinity.
The reason I mention it might depend somewhat where in the world you live is because the M240, from what I've been told by a Leica CSR, is mandated by Leica to require a very specific inspection, calibration and repair process that involves specific, expensive machinery. If your local Leica distributor does not have the machine, then the camera will be sent to Germany for any servicing, which naturally will increase the time you will be without the camera. And Leica's service times are already quite long. Unfortunately, with the digital cameras, it's not like you can send it to DAG or YY for a CLA like you can your film bodies, if any of them will even touch a digital camera to start with. Sure, you can clean the sensor yourself and try to do rangefinder calibration on the fly, but the digital sensor is a lot more demanding of correct RF calibration than film was. I believe Leica spent a lot of after-sale support time calibrating photographers' M9s and lens collections to work well together, thus implemented a more precise manufacturing and calibration standard for the M240 (and probably for all recently produced lenses, too). But it's such that it requires the special hardware to service the M240 to that standard.
You have Leica rangefinder experience, so you can check a used M240 in many ways similarly to a film camera to ensure it's operational, i.e. checking shutter speeds, rangefinder accuracy, but you get the results immediately on the camera without needing to shoot and process a roll of film. You'll want to do test shots at various aperture settings and check the results to see if there are any obvious sensor defects. It's typical to have black spots on images due to dust on the sensor. If using a blower bulb (or wet cleaning) doesn't dislodge the dust, or if there are signs of scratches on the sensor glass (straight, sharp-edged lines) that don't look like hair, you'll want to move on as it would require costly sensor replacement to eliminate (or a lot of retouching later).
In respect to the M240 vs. the M9... again it will depend on your expectations. The M240 is a considerable operational refinement over the M9 with many fewer 'digital quirks' that can pop up during use. For example with the M9, if you shoot prolifically and tend to fill the buffer (IIRC it takes about 7 shots to do so), then force it to show the images it just shot while it's cleaning the buffer, and maybe also try to zoom in on an image... it can lock up the camera and/or result in banding artifacts in the images being written to the card. The M240 with the latest firmware versions is a lot more stable, particularly with the latest firmware. Battery is much bigger and battery life is considerably better than the M9. Overall size is NOT larger. It's something like 1mm larger, but it has a thumb rest that sticks out a bit at the back that probably makes some feel it's bigger, beefier. Maybe it is a bit heavier. That said, the M240's 24MP vs. the M9's 18 does not make a considerable difference (I have both and have tested for this). Sure, the M240 resolves slightly more, but in practical use, it's not often noticeable. More people go on about the CCD vs. CMOS sensor characteristics. IMO, also over exaggerated. You can tweak each in post to render very similarly to the other. Of course, if you prefer not to, then out of camera characteristics will have more sway in such a comparison. But the M240 definitely has a broader dynamic range that tolerates highlight clipping somewhat better than the M9 and results in image files that are quite pliable after the fact (the M9 is very good for lifting shadows, but highlights will clip very quickly in high contrast scenes).
The a7II is a completely different animal. First of all, many people rave about Sony and their sensors. Fact is the M240's sensor is very competitive. Both are 24MP. Both have very similar dynamic range, color quality, etc. The a7II will be a better live view camera, since that is the way you have to use it. But it will also burn through batteries a lot faster. The user interface and feel of the camera while shooting will be a lot different, too. IMO, the Sony cameras feel like computers made to resemble cameras (so much menu diving through horrible menu systems to access various settings), whereas the M240 (and M9) very closely follow Leica M tradition in basic photographic functionality, yet happen to be digital. You should be able to pick up a digital M and shoot with it easily, even if your only prior experience was film rangefinders. Also, the Sony a7 series cameras do not necessarily work well with many rangefinder lenses. This is particularly true with lenses 35mm and wider where the physical effects of the Sony sensor designs can result in degraded image sharpness at the image periphery, particularly as focus approaches infinity.
The reason I mention it might depend somewhat where in the world you live is because the M240, from what I've been told by a Leica CSR, is mandated by Leica to require a very specific inspection, calibration and repair process that involves specific, expensive machinery. If your local Leica distributor does not have the machine, then the camera will be sent to Germany for any servicing, which naturally will increase the time you will be without the camera. And Leica's service times are already quite long. Unfortunately, with the digital cameras, it's not like you can send it to DAG or YY for a CLA like you can your film bodies, if any of them will even touch a digital camera to start with. Sure, you can clean the sensor yourself and try to do rangefinder calibration on the fly, but the digital sensor is a lot more demanding of correct RF calibration than film was. I believe Leica spent a lot of after-sale support time calibrating photographers' M9s and lens collections to work well together, thus implemented a more precise manufacturing and calibration standard for the M240 (and probably for all recently produced lenses, too). But it's such that it requires the special hardware to service the M240 to that standard.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I owned Sony A7, Leica M9, and now own Leica M-P typ 240 and Leica SL.
If you want to buy a secondhand M typ 240, look for the usual signs of abuse and distress. They're fairly robust cameras. Buy from a dealer who will support you if there are any problems.
G
- I didn't like what I got out of the Sony A7 with M lenses. It worked okay with Leica R lenses.
- The M9 worked well but I disliked the in-camera colors intensely and its overall sluggishness.
- The M-P is a delight and, for me, realized the digital M properly. It's what inspired me to purchase more Leica gear. It is very responsive, the improved resolution and auto white balance suits my eye much better than the M9 did, and the small weight penalty of the larger battery nets three times the number of photos per charge than I could get out of the M9. Altogether a win-win for me.
- The SL is superb in every way, works beautifully with its dedicated SL24-90 lens, works beautifully with all my R lenses, and works beautifully with my M lenses too.
If you want to buy a secondhand M typ 240, look for the usual signs of abuse and distress. They're fairly robust cameras. Buy from a dealer who will support you if there are any problems.
G
MikeChong
oldskhool
All points mentioned are valid, I have owned a second hand M240 for several years now. Buy the best, fastest writing card you can. It will help avoid lock ups. It's happened to me only once for some unknown reason. So if you get a chance to try out the actual camera before buying, just fire away, it's a slow buffer, but if it is in good shape cosmetically and all the functions are working, it should be a good one to own. Chimp using the decent screen, you'll see any focus flaws. I have the battery error message as well, wasn't aware of the firmware update, but my two batteries give me easily a full day of shooting each. It's a great camera, you'll enjoy it.
rscheffler
Well-known
Mike, I highly recommend the latest firmware update. Leica finally fixed the problem of the shutter release getting locked out if you decided to chimp while it was still writing to the card. And yes, now the 'check age' warning for the batteries is gone, too. Only lock-ups I've had recently were with the EVF in use and quite high ambient temperature with direct sunlight on the camera/EVF keeping things toasty. I've also had one instance where the full buffer took really long to clear, like over a minute or two, but it eventually did and I did not lose images.
Fotobot
Established
If you can afford the M240, go for that. If you love the rangefinder experience, you likely won't be happy with the Sony. It's a completely different experience (not as good, IMO).
noisycheese
Normal(ish) Human
I would recommend the M240; buy from a reputable Leica dealer who will warranty the camera for 90 days (such as Camera West or Tamarkin).
I would not buy an M240 from a Craig's List or other similar "list" seller; you will have no warranty and you don't know what you're getting.
The M240 is a killer camera; the M-P240 is even better with the doubled buffer size, viewfinder preview lever and the sapphire rear screen.
I would not buy an M240 from a Craig's List or other similar "list" seller; you will have no warranty and you don't know what you're getting.
The M240 is a killer camera; the M-P240 is even better with the doubled buffer size, viewfinder preview lever and the sapphire rear screen.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Calibration of lenses and camera is exactly the area where third-party repairers excel. It is only Sherry Krauter who won't touch digital cameras. Only repairs to the internals of the camera need to be done by Leica.