Whateverist
Well-known
I've been playing around with a Kiev 4 for a few months now (and a few other assorted cameras I picked up at flea markets) and would like to try something different; this time I'd like to get a camera that's a close to a Leica II as possible. It doesn't have to be easy to use, it's looks I'm going for. This lead me to either an early FED or Zorki, but the details of these cameras are still a bit fuzzy. So, a few questions:
- The obvious one: what would I be best off buying? I'm a bit lost in the FED letter soup, have seen various comment about soft bodies and build quality, but little to point to one particular model.
- Is there much difference between the FED NKVD and later models or is it mainly just the stamp on top? I've found an NKVD for sale that seems to have a different shutter button (small dome-shaped one instead of the... "mushroom" type I've seen on pictures of FED-1's. Also, what would the price difference be between an NKVD and a later model - the one I found on DVDTech doesn't cost noticeably more, which seems suspect.
- Likewise, is there much difference between a FED-1 and a Zorki 1? I've found mention that the Zorki was an "evolution" of the FED but little specifics.
- Finally... does anyone have experience with this seller? The prices look good but the glut of so-called "military Leicas" - those are patched-up FSU's, right? - make me a bit suspicious.
Thanks
- The obvious one: what would I be best off buying? I'm a bit lost in the FED letter soup, have seen various comment about soft bodies and build quality, but little to point to one particular model.
- Is there much difference between the FED NKVD and later models or is it mainly just the stamp on top? I've found an NKVD for sale that seems to have a different shutter button (small dome-shaped one instead of the... "mushroom" type I've seen on pictures of FED-1's. Also, what would the price difference be between an NKVD and a later model - the one I found on DVDTech doesn't cost noticeably more, which seems suspect.
- Likewise, is there much difference between a FED-1 and a Zorki 1? I've found mention that the Zorki was an "evolution" of the FED but little specifics.
- Finally... does anyone have experience with this seller? The prices look good but the glut of so-called "military Leicas" - those are patched-up FSU's, right? - make me a bit suspicious.
Thanks
Bassism
Well-known
I am by no means an expert on the FSU cameras, and I'm sure that somebody more knowledgeable will chime in. However, I just went through a bunch of FSU research, so I'll help where I can.
However, my understanding is that the earliest Zorkis were simply rebadged Feds. As time went on, Zorki made some cosmetic changes to the bodies, but I believe the mechanism remained the same. Here is a page that details the evolution of the Zorki 1.
I don't think that there was a degradation of build quality within the 1 itself. Later models are believed to have degraded in build quality over the years. I think the biggest thing is just whether a particular camera was built on a good day or not.
Finally, common advice seems to be to avoid buying the Leica copies to use a shooter. They were often pieced together out of many different cameras, and generally aren't as smooth or reliable as buying a Fed or Zorki in good condition.
Hope I've helped some
However, my understanding is that the earliest Zorkis were simply rebadged Feds. As time went on, Zorki made some cosmetic changes to the bodies, but I believe the mechanism remained the same. Here is a page that details the evolution of the Zorki 1.
I don't think that there was a degradation of build quality within the 1 itself. Later models are believed to have degraded in build quality over the years. I think the biggest thing is just whether a particular camera was built on a good day or not.
Finally, common advice seems to be to avoid buying the Leica copies to use a shooter. They were often pieced together out of many different cameras, and generally aren't as smooth or reliable as buying a Fed or Zorki in good condition.
Hope I've helped some
Whateverist
Well-known
The fake-Leicas were not something I'd spend money on anyway. I'd hate to walk around with a camera that has a Swastika on it of all things.
Dave Wilkinson
Veteran
As many here will agree.....a good Fed2 is a great little user - much better than the earlier stuff!....long base r/f, in the same window as v/f, neat and pocketable, and - dare I say it! the way Leica 11's and 111's should have evolved.
Dave.
Dave.
MartinP
Veteran
I wouldn't ignore the Zorki-5 if I were you. It has a body pretty much the same size as the Zorki-1, but also with a combined v/f and r/f, eye-piece dioptre correction, and even a wind-on lever instead of the knob (though the knob works fine on the Z-1 due to the space available).
The only drawback I found with my Zorki-1 is getting sore eyes from using the tiny viewfinder, so it often has a Jupiter-12 35mm lens and separate finder on it, instead of the original Industar-22 collapsible 50mm lens.
edit: I just saw the comment about the FED-2, and have to agree that it is a better 'user' camera than the Zorki/FED-1, but it is also much bigger. The FED-2 is within a millimetre or two of the basic size of a Leica M3. The Zorki-5 v/f is pretty much that used on the FED-2 - very useable.
The only drawback I found with my Zorki-1 is getting sore eyes from using the tiny viewfinder, so it often has a Jupiter-12 35mm lens and separate finder on it, instead of the original Industar-22 collapsible 50mm lens.
edit: I just saw the comment about the FED-2, and have to agree that it is a better 'user' camera than the Zorki/FED-1, but it is also much bigger. The FED-2 is within a millimetre or two of the basic size of a Leica M3. The Zorki-5 v/f is pretty much that used on the FED-2 - very useable.
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payasam
a.k.a. Mukul Dube
If you want a Zorki similar to the Leica II, you want a Zorki 1. Models earlier than the 1C had the "soft" bodies.
blazejs
Established
I have read that somewhere so this is not my own experience but.. If you want early FED I you should look for postwar version and not NKVD. That's because there wasn't screw standard in that time yet and body + lens had to be adjusted to work together. You may find working couple anyway. I never had FED I or Zorki I so this is based on what I found on other (Polish) forum and was written by experienced person. He suggested FEDs with serial number starting from 201801 when screw was standarized.
Whateverist
Well-known
I have looked at the FED 2 and while I don't doubt for a second that it's a good camera, I did kinda have my heart set on that Leica/FED 1/Zorki 1 styling. Call it misplaced budget snobbism or something () but there's something about walking around with a camera that's visually and functionally the same as a '30s Leica... and that's something I gladly sacrifice some practicality for.
... hope that doesn't sound too insane.
Does that mean the early types only worked with the actual lens that was mounted on them when they left the factory? Or are lenses of the same period interchangeable?
) but there's something about walking around with a camera that's visually and functionally the same as a '30s Leica... and that's something I gladly sacrifice some practicality for. ... hope that doesn't sound too insane.
Does that mean the early types only worked with the actual lens that was mounted on them when they left the factory? Or are lenses of the same period interchangeable?
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mh2000
Well-known
I would strongly encourage you to get a nice user Leica IIIc and add an Industar-22 for you FSU experience.
I've owned a bunch of FSU gear.
The problem with the ealiest FEDs is that the mount is clocked so your scale and focus tab will be wrong for other cameras... and all current LSM lenses will be clocked cockeyed if you try to mount them... that said, my clocked and coated FED-50 on NKVD FED-1 is probably my sharpest FSU LSM lens.
Spend the extra $100 and get a real Leica body... it was certainly better built and was probably loved and pampered more than the FSU counter parts...
Yes, the FED-2 is very nice, but the darkened VF kind of ruins it for me (I will concede that it makes the patch stand out more, but at the expense of a dark view...
I've owned a bunch of FSU gear.
The problem with the ealiest FEDs is that the mount is clocked so your scale and focus tab will be wrong for other cameras... and all current LSM lenses will be clocked cockeyed if you try to mount them... that said, my clocked and coated FED-50 on NKVD FED-1 is probably my sharpest FSU LSM lens.
Spend the extra $100 and get a real Leica body... it was certainly better built and was probably loved and pampered more than the FSU counter parts...
Yes, the FED-2 is very nice, but the darkened VF kind of ruins it for me (I will concede that it makes the patch stand out more, but at the expense of a dark view...
Dave Wilkinson
Veteran
The fun part of the fsu game......after a couple of years 'testing' a drawer full of Ukranian exotica, and still unable to afford a Leica, you can still screw on a modern VC lens and take technically exellent, razor-sharp pictures!
Dave.
Dave.
brachal
Refrigerated User
If you're looking for a Barnack-style FSU, I wouldn't get too hung up on whether a Fed-1f is better than a Fed-1g, or a Zorki-1. They are all very, very similar. I would avoid the 30's production or NKVD Feds because the cameras are matched to their lens and aren't really interchangeable lens cameras. If you stick to post-war production, there really isn't much difference between models. The main thing to remember is that you'll be getting a camera that's over 50 years old. It'll probably need a CLA, at least, if it hasn't recently had one. Consider buying from fedka.com. His merchandise is pretty reliable, and he offers a warranty.
blazejs
Established
It seems like body and lens in NKVD (don't like this name, NKVD was progenitor of KGB and was even worse..) must be matched individually, what was already written by followers. I think that couple body+lens that left factory should be matched but any other lens should be adjusted. For one lens it shouldn't be problem but for more it could be. I've planned to buy a Zorki 1 (at least it's younger than FED and these cameras often were not serviced so older might be in worse condition). I've ended with buying Bessa R (after all FSU cameras are lotery, except for that Bessa has frames for 35-90 range, lightmeter etc.).
Whateverist
Well-known
I think that's what I'm going to end up doing. I used to think shipping from the US was going to be steep, but in the end it's not that much higher than from Eastern Europe.
Perhaps this is a stupid question, but can you swap out a FED's shutter button?
Spider67
Well-known
One camera not mentioned but also giving you the Leica II experience is the Zorki C (it's also rather cheap). It's a bit of an ugly duckling and not so close to the Leica look (although it was used as one in at least one movie).
Its RF patch is much better than that of my postwar IIIc(the barely visible patch on the IIIc has to be corrected with an orange filter)
Its RF patch is much better than that of my postwar IIIc(the barely visible patch on the IIIc has to be corrected with an orange filter)
mh2000
Well-known
My Leica IIIc from KEH cost less than $300 and works perfectly, my "drawer full" of not really working FSU bodies cost way more than $300. If you have a drawer full, then you could have afforded the Leica... and saved yourself a bunch of frustration...
I think the fun part is dreaming that one of the damn things will work and you don't need to buy a Leica... but it is mostly a fantasy.
I think the fun part is dreaming that one of the damn things will work and you don't need to buy a Leica... but it is mostly a fantasy.
The fun part of the fsu game......after a couple of years 'testing' a drawer full of Ukranian exotica, and still unable to afford a Leica, you can still screw on a modern VC lens and take technically exellent, razor-sharp pictures!
Dave.
Whateverist
Well-known
It's a good suggestion, but the price difference between a good Zorki C and good Fed or Zorki 1 doesn't seem to be that big. I'd rather spend $20 more for the camera that's perfect than get the camera that's good enough
As for reliability... I've bought FSU before; I know it's a gamble. So far - knock on wood - I've been lucky, and I hope that buying from a reputable seller and getting a CLA can offset any quality issues. It's worked so far...
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pauls52
Established
I have a late Fed 2L, Zorki C (or S), Zorki 1e and and 2x Fed 1g. These were all bought cheap from FSU countries and except for 1 Fed 1g, all off eBay. The 2L looked and smelled like it had just had a home brewed "CLA" but it looks good and seems to operate properly. The Zorki C was cheap, like about AU$25 (in today's economic disaster, US$16-17) but almost mint and almost unused - but that was about 18 months ago before almost everything from the FSU sellers became BIN.
The Zorki 1e has an ok shutter but the wind is very stiff and needs dismantling. One 1g bought very reasonably from the legendary Oleg at OK Cameras is very good. The other 1g may even be better but needs new shutter curtains (bought from Oleg and awaiting some free time to fit). Cosmetically, all the cameras are in very good to almost mint original condition.
That is my experience. People who tell you not to bother with old FSU gear are often speaking from disappointing personal experiences. There are a couple of things you have to consider. An early Fed may look like a Leica II from 10 paces but it will never work like one - they were never built to the same tolerences. On the other hand, it can come close. Most Leicas would have been cared for and been CLA'd some or many times. Most Feds (and the ones we a re talking about ar all over 50 years old) have never been touched from the day they left the factory. If something went wrong, repairs were more likely to be attempted by DIY of the heavy handed type. The fact that the cameras have survived this long is a tribute to their solid (if agricultural) build qualities. In other words, you will have to allow for a CLA or be prepared to do one yourself (there are plenty of guides around). Its funny, people will pay hundres for a Leica and expect to fork out more for an expensive CLA but will spend much less for a Fed and begrudge a penny more. They are both mechanical devices.
Regarding models, the rcommedation to stay away from prewar Feds for a user is a good one. In looks and mechanicals, there were no significant changes but the lenses were individually matched to their original bodies. If you buy one now, there is no guarantee that they are still matched (unless you are lucky enough to get a passport). Also, collectors value the prewar cameras most highly because they are rarer and older - you would be paying a premium just for the engraving on top of a camera.
So that means a Fed 1f or 1g. The only difference is a slight change to the engravings. The early 1f has the Leica type shutter release, the change to the mushroom type and "modern" shutter speed progression range was in the middle of the model life. The only problem is that most, if not all the early 1fs had uncoated lenses whereas coated lenses were introduced at a similar time to the shutter release mods. Best user therefore is with a mushroom type fitting!
Early Fed-Zorkis and Zorki 1as were basically post-war Fed clones but are rare and now very expensive. Zorki 1bs are the "soft bodies" to stay away from but also expensive. Zorki 1c to 1e are the ones to get as users. Zorki did a lot of development work and the shutters in the later ones are reputed to be better. All had coated Industar lenses. Its just that I personally don't like the frame around the vulcanite of these models and you probably wont either if you are looking for the "Leica" experience.
When you say you haven't found a lot on the net, you can't have been looking too hard! There are some very good sites. If you really have trouble, ask again and I will point you at some.
Good luck,
Paul
The Zorki 1e has an ok shutter but the wind is very stiff and needs dismantling. One 1g bought very reasonably from the legendary Oleg at OK Cameras is very good. The other 1g may even be better but needs new shutter curtains (bought from Oleg and awaiting some free time to fit). Cosmetically, all the cameras are in very good to almost mint original condition.
That is my experience. People who tell you not to bother with old FSU gear are often speaking from disappointing personal experiences. There are a couple of things you have to consider. An early Fed may look like a Leica II from 10 paces but it will never work like one - they were never built to the same tolerences. On the other hand, it can come close. Most Leicas would have been cared for and been CLA'd some or many times. Most Feds (and the ones we a re talking about ar all over 50 years old) have never been touched from the day they left the factory. If something went wrong, repairs were more likely to be attempted by DIY of the heavy handed type. The fact that the cameras have survived this long is a tribute to their solid (if agricultural) build qualities. In other words, you will have to allow for a CLA or be prepared to do one yourself (there are plenty of guides around). Its funny, people will pay hundres for a Leica and expect to fork out more for an expensive CLA but will spend much less for a Fed and begrudge a penny more. They are both mechanical devices.
Regarding models, the rcommedation to stay away from prewar Feds for a user is a good one. In looks and mechanicals, there were no significant changes but the lenses were individually matched to their original bodies. If you buy one now, there is no guarantee that they are still matched (unless you are lucky enough to get a passport). Also, collectors value the prewar cameras most highly because they are rarer and older - you would be paying a premium just for the engraving on top of a camera.
So that means a Fed 1f or 1g. The only difference is a slight change to the engravings. The early 1f has the Leica type shutter release, the change to the mushroom type and "modern" shutter speed progression range was in the middle of the model life. The only problem is that most, if not all the early 1fs had uncoated lenses whereas coated lenses were introduced at a similar time to the shutter release mods. Best user therefore is with a mushroom type fitting!
Early Fed-Zorkis and Zorki 1as were basically post-war Fed clones but are rare and now very expensive. Zorki 1bs are the "soft bodies" to stay away from but also expensive. Zorki 1c to 1e are the ones to get as users. Zorki did a lot of development work and the shutters in the later ones are reputed to be better. All had coated Industar lenses. Its just that I personally don't like the frame around the vulcanite of these models and you probably wont either if you are looking for the "Leica" experience.
When you say you haven't found a lot on the net, you can't have been looking too hard! There are some very good sites. If you really have trouble, ask again and I will point you at some.
Good luck,
Paul
Whateverist
Well-known
Out of curiosity, what's the practical difference between shooting with a coated vs an uncoated lens?
mnmleung
Established
Whateverist, I bought both a FED 2 and a Zorki 1 from Oleg at okvintagecamera.com and I have only put one roll of film in each. I had fun and some of our local camera club members thought they were among some of the best maintained FSU RF they have seen. I just took some everyday shots with them if you are curious
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mnmleung/tags/fed
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mnmleung/tags/zorki1
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mnmleung/tags/kiev4
I also bought Kiev 4 off Oleg and that was fun too. Personally I am happy with Oleg's service and am glad I followed advice from RFF FSU and from flickr friends (Bill and Alex), amongst others. Oh, and I bought the FED and KIEV from Oleg, before the cameras appeared (they never did) on his website. I just asked for them in an e-mail. This all happened between 24-12 months ago
Ming
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mnmleung/tags/fed
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mnmleung/tags/zorki1
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mnmleung/tags/kiev4
I also bought Kiev 4 off Oleg and that was fun too. Personally I am happy with Oleg's service and am glad I followed advice from RFF FSU and from flickr friends (Bill and Alex), amongst others. Oh, and I bought the FED and KIEV from Oleg, before the cameras appeared (they never did) on his website. I just asked for them in an e-mail. This all happened between 24-12 months ago
Ming
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pauls52
Established
Just thought of a couple of other things. The reputation for shoddy design design, non-existent QA, unrealistic production targets and workers with vodka in their veins is often quoted as a fact for the entire FSU photographic industry. I'm not sure that this is entirely fair but where there is smoke, there is fire I guess. However, the general consensus is that things started to go downhill from the mid 50s and by the 70s, undoubtedly it was possible to buy a new camera which was faulty out of the box. The 1 series Feds and Zorkis would have all been good useable cameras in their day with the best user reputations from the end of the 40s and first year of the 50s, ie quirks and production ironed out before the cost cutting started.
I would love a Leica and the stories of a Leica body for only a couple of hundred $s seem doable - before I convert that to devalued Aussie dollars. Then, mostly you need to add a lens. Not just any lens....
Somebody mentioned cameras assembled from parts. There have been some pretty shonky sellers around who have put together bits of various model Zorkis and Feds to come up with one complete camera - a Fedzorkinstein. Often this is not done with skill and an interesting paper weight ensues - neither a collectible nor user. This doesn't happen very often. The best defence is to buy from a reputable source (which I only did on one occassion) or do your homework well on cameras, their tell tale features and sellers eg their ratings, descriptions of items and reputation if you can. Good photos of items really help and provide confidence but often a poor description and bad photo will turn other buyers away from a genuine bargain. Some cameras have been "pimped" (not talking the fantasy or fake cameras) vulcanite painted, silver surfaces refinished etc. Tell tale signs are that they are very shiny but the black paint from the engraved numbers is missing including on lenses. Personally, I would look for an original condition example that looks in good nick. In the end, it is your risk and your choice.
Paul
I would love a Leica and the stories of a Leica body for only a couple of hundred $s seem doable - before I convert that to devalued Aussie dollars. Then, mostly you need to add a lens. Not just any lens....
Somebody mentioned cameras assembled from parts. There have been some pretty shonky sellers around who have put together bits of various model Zorkis and Feds to come up with one complete camera - a Fedzorkinstein. Often this is not done with skill and an interesting paper weight ensues - neither a collectible nor user. This doesn't happen very often. The best defence is to buy from a reputable source (which I only did on one occassion) or do your homework well on cameras, their tell tale features and sellers eg their ratings, descriptions of items and reputation if you can. Good photos of items really help and provide confidence but often a poor description and bad photo will turn other buyers away from a genuine bargain. Some cameras have been "pimped" (not talking the fantasy or fake cameras) vulcanite painted, silver surfaces refinished etc. Tell tale signs are that they are very shiny but the black paint from the engraved numbers is missing including on lenses. Personally, I would look for an original condition example that looks in good nick. In the end, it is your risk and your choice.
Paul