C-41 kits and the process in general

[kiss-o-matic]

Okay, I'm ready to do this. Caveat: C41 kits locally are like Unicorn tears. A guy in a boutique brick & mortar told me the name of a local Tetenal partner, but I've forgotten it, and apparently I'm not as good at Google as I thought. I can, however, get the Rollei Digibase C-41 Ready Use, which does 10 rolls, so I got it. Cost performance-wise it's like 40% cheaper than getting negs done at the lab assuming I don't bork anything up, or poison myself in the process. If I cross, then there is substantial savings. If I cross and push then it's a real bargain.

Anywho, I assume there will be ample instructions in the box, but for the ready use kit, do I just put each separate one into it's own container, use as directed, and then back into the container via a funnel? When doing B&W, I was told that developer gets it's own funnel/tubes/you name it, and the stop bath & fixer get their own. Is this the same case in C41? From the few tutorials I've read it doesn't seem the case.

From what I've read the Rollei seems to be the way to go if you can't keep liquids a specific temperature. Ironically, my current place is the first one I've lived in in years that doesn't have a temperature controlled bath. Seemed stupid to get since I took like 1 bath a year. Oh, the irony.

Ready for all kinds of comments and insults.

EDIT: The other Japan residents can chime in here, but it looks like Fujifilm makes a C-41 kit that is not available domestically. :-/

 

[alienmeatsack]

I personally keep separate supplies for my BW and my C41 processing. This includes tanks, reels, beakers, funnels, storage containers and chemical bottles (of course). I do this because it means no worries of cross contamination.

I also keep a third extra tank and a few reels on hand as backups. I've used these to do Caffenol and washed them very well after but I wash them well after any use. They are my backup if I have issues with the other 2 tanks or reels.

I've not used the Rollei kit but I hear they are Fuji Hunt brand kits where it counts and are supposed to be top notch.

When using the chemicals, you can use the same funnel to pour the chems back into the respective bottles, just make sure to rinse your funnel well. I wash it between chemicals with a little soap and rinse super well just to be safe. I know people who buy separate funnels for each chemical. Which isn't that much money, I found my 3 size kit at a dollar store for $1 USD, even if they were $5-10, it's not much to keep everything from getting into the other chemicals if you want to be safe about it.

I also keep plenty of paper towels on hand, wear 'surgical' gloves found at a local store, rinse my hands and wipe down everything and toss the paper towels if they get chemicals on them and use a fresh one.

Getting a little of the developer in the fixer/bleach (or blix) isn't life ending, but getting the latter in the former is. So just take it easy, go step by step and you should be fine.

I found that c41 was super easy, really the only difference between it and black and white was that I had to monitor the temperature of the chemicals and watch them for exhaustion. If you get a liquid concentrate based kit, you should be able to mix up enough to do a batch of rolls and use it until you feel it's past it's useful visual results, replace with fresh and repeat. When you get dry/powder mix based chems, you have to mix each one up completely so there's no doing it in small chunks to save.

Hope this helps!

 

[kiss-o-matic]

That helped a lot, thanks. If it goes well, I'll just order the big kit (100 rolls) from Germany, although the shipping is more than the product. Even so, it's like 130 yen per roll assuming I only do 100, which is substantially cheaper than the smaller kit locally. That is the high concentration liquid kit... the only one in stock locally that I see here is the ready to use one, so that's what I'll cut my teeth with.

Getting another reel/tank might work but I'm in a transitional period right now. Trying to get the hang of the metal reels to save developer (and due to a bad instance w/ a sprocket that was warped by a naughty camera, and worsened in a plastic reel) and am kind of on the fence on which way to go.

Finally, I gotta ask since you mentioned surgical gloves: Are C41 checmicals any more dangerous than B&W? My only concern is that my kitchen is small... average at best by Japanese standards (even though my house is probably larger than average). Things can get... cluttered. I would move it to the shower/bath, where Japanese seem to have development in mind when they made them. However, it has less than ideal ventilation to say the least.

 

[mwoenv]

I use the same steel reels and tanks for C41 and black and white. I just wash (rinse) them thoroughly in running water after any use and have had no problems. The same for rinsing the plastic funnel between any uses. I let everything air dry as use of a towel or cloth to dry them may leave some lint which could show up on the film next time.

I use a different, dedicated bottle for each color and black and white chemical.

For safety I wear lab goggles ($10-12) whenever a chemical bottle is open or in use (never had an accident but you never know when you might drop a bottle and get splashing). I also use nitrile disposable gloves which are more chemical resistant than latex (about $12 per box of 100 at any online lab supply place). But I reuse the gloves a bunch of times because contact with chemicals is pretty incidental and the chemicals are dilute solutions. I also make sure there's some ventilation whenever chemicals are used. With these modest expenditures and precautions, and just being careful and concentrating on what you're doing, I think C41 and black and white chemicals are safe to work with.

 

[kiss-o-matic]

Thanks. I will remember that. Gloves are probably a good idea, especially since my hands crack quite badly in the dry winter here. I have some goggles that I use for soldering, so perhaps I should get them out of the closet.

 

[Fotohuis]

Part C of the C41 developer contains para-Phenylene Diamine which is crappy stuff.
This is also the ingredient which is prone to oxydation hence part C of the kit is gone first which you can see of the purple color then.
It takes about 6-10 months from opened concentrate bottles.

This is the instruction manual of the Digibase C41 kit from Rollei (in fact from Fuji Hunt chemicals in Belgium).

http://www.fotohuisrovo.nl/documentatie/Rollei_Digibase_C41_InstructionManual.pdfhttp://

When going to re-generate it is important that you put an extra rinse between all steps with destilled water.

Also the temperature control is important: 37,8C +/- 0,5C.

Lucky me:

 

[Fotohuis]

CCCP train in Mykolaiv, Ukraine on Fuji Reala 100 in the C.V. Bessa III 667.
Digibase C41 kit.

 

[Fotohuis]

When re-generating you can use old chemicals (till 4-6 months old), leave 100ml and add new 100ml fluids.

In this way you can use with above Jobo CPA-2 with elevator 300ml for the # 2523 rotary tank (which has a minimum volume of 270ml) for two C41 135-36 or two C41 120 roll films.

In case of doubt use this Jobo overview:

 

[Fotohuis]

And each time when replacing 100ml you can develop another two films .....

 

[Fotohuis]

Important note: Use destilled water, especially for the Stabilizer.

Use a bit less Stabilizer concentrate then advised: e.g. 25ml for 300 volume.
And do not use the Stabilizer in the elevator system. You will get heavilly foam contamination.

So the last step only in the tank, even better in a glass beaker.

 

[kiss-o-matic]

Nice train. 😉
I will have to come back to this thread once I actually get the kit.

I actually saw a Jobo CPP2 here for sale. I think it was close to $1000 or so. Tempting, but I think I'll stick w/ the tanks for the time being. 🙂

 

[Fotohuis]

My CPA-2 was a bottle of wine. I replaced the elevator for a new modified one. I also changed for the "easy rollers" to have less torque on the main motor unit.
Further within one year I had to replace the re-circulation motor (pump) incl. some small modifications, supplied with the exchange kit, a small motor and the most weak part of any CPA/CPP.

For the rest using it as a professional unit, twice a week.

The exchange of the motor and elevator was rather simple.

 

[Fotohuis]

Total costs:
Eur. 200,- for the elevator, Eur. 10,- for the easy rollers, Eur. 70,- for the pump-motor and modifications, some work and a bottle of wine.

Jobo prices: 2011/2012.

.... and I bought a new 2523 tank with some 2502 reels. I have two 2523 (film-) tanks now and some paper drums (till 40x50cm) too, supllied for that bottle of wine. 🙂

 

[mwoenv]

It's very easy to develop at constant temperature using water baths. The developer step needs to be done at the exact temperature while some minor deviation is allowed in the other steps. I first bring the empty tank/reels/films to the right temperature using a small 6-pack cooler water bath. As the tank warms up the water cools and I add small amounts of hot water as needed. The temperature of the bath is measured using a digital LCD thermometer with a wire probe (Extech TM20), calibrated to a color thermometer. Eventually (in about 30 minutes) the temperature remains constant, indicating the tank and water temperature are in equilibrium. After bringing the solutions to the right temperature in a separate water bath, developing is performed at constant temperature by maintaining the temperature in the 6-pack water bath over the short processing times involved.

I have produced excellent negatives (density, true colors) for years using this approach with Unicolor and Digibase kits. It's not necessary to spend thousands on a processor unless perhaps you are processing huge volumes or you just can and want to spend the money.

 

[kiss-o-matic]

So your first part is to put the film in the tank, fill it with water, and then warm the water externally by putting it in the cooler? If everything can sit in the same tub is there any reason why you wouldn't raise the temperature of the solutions and the film at the same time? I'm sure there's many ways to skin that cat, but figured I'd ask.

I have decent control over the water temperature of my tap. Very convenient dial for the whole apartment right by the front door (yeah, I know). Right now it's at 80%, which gives me 44C temperatures when I have the faucet turned all the way to hot. My guess is I can get it to 58-60 if I turn the dial for the apartment up the whole way. Assuming I can do 60 degrees, how long would it take to heat up the solutions (I believe it would be 4 liters worth)? Sounds like one of those thermometers is a given.

 

[noisycheese]

A few suggestions -

Always use ONLY distilled water to mix your chemicals, no matter if you are developing C-41, E-6 or B&W.

You can use the same tank & reels to develop C-41 that you use for B&W; just be sure to rinse them thoroughly and dry them well when switching from B&W to color or vice versa.

Once the developing process is complete, distilled water is not needed for rinsing your film; rinsing your film in tap water that is safe for human consumption will not cause color shift, increase in graininess, etc..

One of these kits http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/109267-REG/Tetenal_T109306_C_41_Press_Kit_for.html will develop 12 rolls of 36 exposure 35mm film. Just be sure to develop all 12 rolls the same day as you mix the chemicals.

Chemistry bottles are cheap
( http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/109267-REG/Tetenal_T109306_C_41_Press_Kit_for.html ). Contaminated chemistry and/or ruined film is expensive. Spring for a few extra chemistry bottles.

 

[kiss-o-matic]

The problem w/ the Tetenal kit is doing 12 rolls in a day. I'd have to save up for a little while I think... a few weeks worth of shooting. The Rollei kit boasts a very long shelf life, which I'm liking. B&H's shipping abroad is terrible cost performance for something small... something big (like a lens) it's not so bad.

Right now I mix my B&W solutions w/ tap, but do a final rinse w/ distilled. I'm sure there are varying opinions on this, but thus far I'm pleased with my results. Doing a deep de-dusting of my house would be a smarter choice of my time, but it wouldn't last, I fear.

 

[Fotohuis]

The reason for destilled water is a precise pH of the buffers in color development. Also the temperature 100F/37,8C is important because only on this temperature the color couplers are reacting the same.

With the Tetenal kit you can also re-generate. Only the Blix has less capacity then a seperate Bleach and Fixer.

If your tank is larger you have the advantage of the warm capacity of the water which is rather high. Starting at 39C in the pre-soak you can adapt the system in such a way that starting at 38C (+/- 0,5C) for 3:15 minutes (C41 developer) the temperature is very close. For the rest of the processing you can have more deviation +/- 2C without any problem.

 

[kiss-o-matic]

I got the Ready Use kit. I don't think it lasts particularly long once opened, so I'm going to wait until I have 10 rolls ready to develop to start, which will likely be next weekend. However, after reading around, it seems you develop ISO 100 for the same time as you develop ISO 1600. (The instructions make no mention of different speed films).

So if I have a roll of 400 I shot at box speed, and a roll of 400 I pushed to 1600, and they're my first two films for this batch, do I do the exact same process for both? I understand one will take more developer than the other, but if this is the case, why are labs charging me to push. Or I guess, more to the point, why am I telling them to push?

Also, is it wise to use a wetting agent like w/ B&W, or should the bleach/fix take care of that?

 

[Photo_Smith]

All C41 films have the same time 3:15 when rated at box speed.

If you push you'll need to extend the developing time, your kit may help with times.