sfb_dot_com
Well-known
I've been sitting on this for quite a while now, so thought I'd finally give vent to what's been festering inside. I joined my local camera club last autumn after a lifetime of not being a member of any sort of camera club. To be honest, it was more about the social side as I had moved after my relationship broke up, and basically was stuck at home with no social life. I'm just generally not a club person anyway, and many of these comments could also apply to bike clubs which have many of the same dynamics.
Anyway, on joining, I was given a programme of events which included mysterious things such as KF1, KF2 etc. There were 'battles' with other local clubs, and various guest speakers and demonstrations. So far so good. It turned out that the mysterious KFs were a sort of ongoing competition, and a lot of the club evenings were centred around these. I personally find any kind of public criticism very hard, but that is my problem. Anyway, i put some images forward for these various competitions, but the learning curve was very steep, and there always seemed to be reasons why things didn't come out as presented. And of course 'We're all digital now - aren't we' was the mantra. (I haven't told them about my various film cameras) At times it felt like being the central character in Franz Kafkas 'The Trial' where everyone but me understood what was going on. My pictures didn't do too badly, and I even got a second on one night, but I found the whole tone of the thing very rigid. Rules were there to be enforced. The Chairman whom I now sadly find I detest acts much like a dictator and is very prescriptive.
Then there is the hierarchy. There is of course a committee, visiting judges, even one from the RPS (all hail) But in addition to this there is the WCGPF, or some such, the Alliance, The Federation, and so on. There seems to be an expectation that members submit to all sorts of competitions judging by the number of emails that I'm getting from the aforesaid Chairman.
Don't get me wrong, it's not all bad, and there are some genuinely nice people there. But, I'm beginning to find excuses for not going. So, my question is: Am I some kind of oddball, or have I somehow entered through the wrong door. The door into 'The Twilight Zone'.... dee dee dee dee dee (Sorry couldn't resist)
Andy
Anyway, on joining, I was given a programme of events which included mysterious things such as KF1, KF2 etc. There were 'battles' with other local clubs, and various guest speakers and demonstrations. So far so good. It turned out that the mysterious KFs were a sort of ongoing competition, and a lot of the club evenings were centred around these. I personally find any kind of public criticism very hard, but that is my problem. Anyway, i put some images forward for these various competitions, but the learning curve was very steep, and there always seemed to be reasons why things didn't come out as presented. And of course 'We're all digital now - aren't we' was the mantra. (I haven't told them about my various film cameras) At times it felt like being the central character in Franz Kafkas 'The Trial' where everyone but me understood what was going on. My pictures didn't do too badly, and I even got a second on one night, but I found the whole tone of the thing very rigid. Rules were there to be enforced. The Chairman whom I now sadly find I detest acts much like a dictator and is very prescriptive.
Then there is the hierarchy. There is of course a committee, visiting judges, even one from the RPS (all hail) But in addition to this there is the WCGPF, or some such, the Alliance, The Federation, and so on. There seems to be an expectation that members submit to all sorts of competitions judging by the number of emails that I'm getting from the aforesaid Chairman.
Don't get me wrong, it's not all bad, and there are some genuinely nice people there. But, I'm beginning to find excuses for not going. So, my question is: Am I some kind of oddball, or have I somehow entered through the wrong door. The door into 'The Twilight Zone'.... dee dee dee dee dee (Sorry couldn't resist)
Andy
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
No, you're not odd. Camera clubs tend to be like that. Very rigid and formulaic ideas about composition and what a photo should look like. When I was in college, the photo professor took us to a camera club meeting so we could see how narrow minded some photographers can be and how we as artists should NOT be.
antiquark
Derek Ross
Here is the famous photographer, Stephen Shore's comment on camera clubs of the 1960's:
So it sounds like camera clubs haven't changed in decades.
DRabbit
Registered
It's tough. I just joined a local camera club too, and like you, more for the social side reason (find new friends with common interests).
First, I hate all the "big gear talk". Hey, I can talk cameras with the best of them, but the "mine's bigger than yours" DSLR club is a bit of a turn off. This particular club even had a "show and tell" portion and some of the guys had bags bigger than my largest suitcase. They were pulling out flashlights and huge tripods and pliers and garbage bags... and telling everyone "you should ALWAYS carry THIS"... jeeez... 99% of the time I merely have my camera slung around my neck without even a cap!
They also had some 20 minute argument about RSVPing to events... which I totally get, but as a first-timer, it was a bit intimidating... and I'm not a shy easily-intimidated person.
I want to talk photography, which likely makes me unpopular with the other women who want to talk about their kids or grandkids while I talk to their husbands about photos and cameras. I can only hope that's not the case. And it's not like there's all that many women there to begin with. It's probably 5-1 in favor of men.
And yes... "digital only now" seems the mantra at this club too. Me with my small bag and a few rangefinder cameras, several film, I was the freak in the cage for all to stare at amongst the big nature-shooting DSLRS.
Some of the people were very nice and I'm going to keep going... I just don't know if it's a crowd I'll ultimately "clique" with. I will say, I had a whole lot more fun at the NYC Rangerfinder Forum meet last month! I hope that becomes a regular thing!
So yeah... I feel your pain...
First, I hate all the "big gear talk". Hey, I can talk cameras with the best of them, but the "mine's bigger than yours" DSLR club is a bit of a turn off. This particular club even had a "show and tell" portion and some of the guys had bags bigger than my largest suitcase. They were pulling out flashlights and huge tripods and pliers and garbage bags... and telling everyone "you should ALWAYS carry THIS"... jeeez... 99% of the time I merely have my camera slung around my neck without even a cap!
They also had some 20 minute argument about RSVPing to events... which I totally get, but as a first-timer, it was a bit intimidating... and I'm not a shy easily-intimidated person.
I want to talk photography, which likely makes me unpopular with the other women who want to talk about their kids or grandkids while I talk to their husbands about photos and cameras. I can only hope that's not the case. And it's not like there's all that many women there to begin with. It's probably 5-1 in favor of men.
And yes... "digital only now" seems the mantra at this club too. Me with my small bag and a few rangefinder cameras, several film, I was the freak in the cage for all to stare at amongst the big nature-shooting DSLRS.
Some of the people were very nice and I'm going to keep going... I just don't know if it's a crowd I'll ultimately "clique" with. I will say, I had a whole lot more fun at the NYC Rangerfinder Forum meet last month! I hope that becomes a regular thing!
So yeah... I feel your pain...
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FrankS
Registered User
I've belonged to a couple different camera clubs in the past, even won the B+W print photographer of the year at the Scarborough CC, and had a top scoring colour print at the Kodak salon of area camera clubs. This was before digital took over and we were still prints and slides. Only a couple of guys had digital cameras and they submitted prints. For a while, I enjoyed the contests and judgings, but then realised how narrow-minded they were, and evolved beyond them. The best part was after the formal meetings when a few like-minded guys went out for coffee and shot the breeze. I'm thinking about starting an informal film-only photo club in my town, and modelling it after those old post-meeting coffee house get togethers, talking about prints we've made.
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Steve Bellayr
Veteran
Camera clubs are never at the cutting edge. They are what was good yesterday. The photos shown are good for 50 years ago. Have you ever noticed how many photographers say they want to take pictures like Ansel Adams?...No offense, Ansel, but there are other photographers an other more modern ideas that need to be explored & shown. Rangefinder cameras are not inherently landscape cameras. They are more attuned to street photography not something that you will find in Camera Clubs. I personally found that a lot of the discussion revolved around "How can I digitally manipulate this image to make it look better?" For me the anwser is always: "Dude, take a better picture."
thambar
Shouldn't it be sharper?
I tried a local camera club a few years ago, and found it hilarious. There were three judges who used some electronic device to vote on the various (awful) images. The only benefit of the meeting was that a Fuji rep visited, and gave away free film. I left with several packs of slightly outdated 4x5 Velvia, and set up a memorable photo trip with two other friends and a Model A convertible (that's another story.)
Leigh Youdale
Well-known
Well, I'm the past President and current Vice President of my local camera club. Fortunately the vibe of the meetings and acceptance of female members and their images is pretty good on the whole. One in particular produces some outstanding images and she has only been serious about photography for about 18 months.
We meet twice a month - once for a talk or education night and once for the monthly "competition". We don't get too serious about the comps and we fortunately seem to have lost our prima donnas. We have "Small Prints" i.e. the ones you get printed at the local photo booth and that's for people who can't arrange or can't afford to make big prints. Typically it's where new members start off. Then we have Large Colour Prints and Large Mono Prints. Basically from 10x8 up to 16x20. And finally this year a separate category for digital projection of both colour and mono.
It's a formula that seems to work reasonably well, but there are still a couple of glitches for me.
One is that I think I'm the only member still exclusively using film. Consequently the judging is peppered with comments about "you could have done this, that or the other thing in Photoshop" and visiting and respected judges unabashedly recommend people drop a different sky in or so totally mess with the original image I'm left wondering where the boundaries lie between "photography" and "photographic-based art".
The other problem I have that in spite of urging, the club insists on the competitions always being open subject. I think that's a formula that makes it very hard for a judge to comparatively assess the member's images, does not challenge people to go out and use their imagination to "take on" the subject, and makes people lazy by allowing them to continually dig into their reserves to find one image that will hopefully impress the judges. It's such a turn-off for me that I don't enter.
So I've actually joined a second club that meets once a month, is an hour's drive away but has some traditional film and darkroom workers and (mostly) has set subjects for their monthly comps.
We meet twice a month - once for a talk or education night and once for the monthly "competition". We don't get too serious about the comps and we fortunately seem to have lost our prima donnas. We have "Small Prints" i.e. the ones you get printed at the local photo booth and that's for people who can't arrange or can't afford to make big prints. Typically it's where new members start off. Then we have Large Colour Prints and Large Mono Prints. Basically from 10x8 up to 16x20. And finally this year a separate category for digital projection of both colour and mono.
It's a formula that seems to work reasonably well, but there are still a couple of glitches for me.
One is that I think I'm the only member still exclusively using film. Consequently the judging is peppered with comments about "you could have done this, that or the other thing in Photoshop" and visiting and respected judges unabashedly recommend people drop a different sky in or so totally mess with the original image I'm left wondering where the boundaries lie between "photography" and "photographic-based art".
The other problem I have that in spite of urging, the club insists on the competitions always being open subject. I think that's a formula that makes it very hard for a judge to comparatively assess the member's images, does not challenge people to go out and use their imagination to "take on" the subject, and makes people lazy by allowing them to continually dig into their reserves to find one image that will hopefully impress the judges. It's such a turn-off for me that I don't enter.
So I've actually joined a second club that meets once a month, is an hour's drive away but has some traditional film and darkroom workers and (mostly) has set subjects for their monthly comps.
swoop
Well-known
I don't talk to other people about cameras. It's always the same conversation. All the other photographers I know, the only way I get along with them is to talk about anything but cameras. We can can all be at some political function or a crime scene. And we hardly ever mention cameras. it's mostly about how the Mayor is always late or how it's too cold to be outside or there's nothing interesting to photograph or how we're taking 500 pictures but the paper is only going to run one photo.
And then amateurs/hobbyists are a whole different sort. They all want to know how I got my job and if I can get them work. Which really means they want my job. Because the only contacts I have are for the people who give me assignments and mail me checks. I don't know anyone else. I'm not going to give them my editors phone number to ask for a job when I can use every assignment I can get. That's money out of my pocket. I really wish I could help. But I can't. It's a really small pond and people only move up because someone else left the space open by moving up.
I honestly just avoid the whole scene. I find it a lot easier to go about my life as a photographer not mentioning photography. It's just something I do, not a conversation point. When people ask what I do for a living. 4 out of 5 times I'll just say Journalist instead of Photojournalist.
And then amateurs/hobbyists are a whole different sort. They all want to know how I got my job and if I can get them work. Which really means they want my job. Because the only contacts I have are for the people who give me assignments and mail me checks. I don't know anyone else. I'm not going to give them my editors phone number to ask for a job when I can use every assignment I can get. That's money out of my pocket. I really wish I could help. But I can't. It's a really small pond and people only move up because someone else left the space open by moving up.
I honestly just avoid the whole scene. I find it a lot easier to go about my life as a photographer not mentioning photography. It's just something I do, not a conversation point. When people ask what I do for a living. 4 out of 5 times I'll just say Journalist instead of Photojournalist.
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MatthewThompson
Well-known
Precisely why I'm not a member of the MPPA or PPOC. It's a group of people glad-handing each other and slapping each other on the back (or across the face) over how wonderful and elite they are. Looking from the outside in, it's a money grab unless you compete with prints to win "certifications". I'm sure looking from the inside out, I and all the other professionals who choose not to submit are merely hacks.
My experience with camera clubs usually includes a member with more money than sense (eg: Canon 600L for occasional birding off back deck) and grotesque HDR concoctions where everyone agrees on its groundbreaking beauty. As DRabbit mentioned, it's a pissing match over who's got the trendiest gear and a photoshop support group.
My experience with camera clubs usually includes a member with more money than sense (eg: Canon 600L for occasional birding off back deck) and grotesque HDR concoctions where everyone agrees on its groundbreaking beauty. As DRabbit mentioned, it's a pissing match over who's got the trendiest gear and a photoshop support group.
Steve Bellayr
Veteran
'Consequently the judging is peppered with comments about "you could have done this, that or the other thing in Photoshop" and visiting and respected judges unabashedly recommend people drop a different sky in or so totally mess with the original image I'm left wondering where the boundaries lie between "photography" and "photographic-based art".' Is that not called a 'Collage?' Do you want to photograph subjects or make composit images?
I was watching a program today explaining how I could take all my dead family members and put them together in a photograph of living family members who never met. Is that photography or something else? I went to a Camera Club meeting and the guest lecturer explained his method of putting creatures in selective cages and selling them as images of animals in the wild. Inherently, something is wrong about that procedure. Shouldn't there be a disclaimer? And, here is my disclaimer: This is not about digital vs. analog. It is about honesty.
If someone takes a photograph of a building and then adds a second photograph of a different sky I believe that that individual should state that his/her image is a Composite Image and that he/she is actually submitting two photographs not one...but then again that is my opinion not that of the majority.
I was watching a program today explaining how I could take all my dead family members and put them together in a photograph of living family members who never met. Is that photography or something else? I went to a Camera Club meeting and the guest lecturer explained his method of putting creatures in selective cages and selling them as images of animals in the wild. Inherently, something is wrong about that procedure. Shouldn't there be a disclaimer? And, here is my disclaimer: This is not about digital vs. analog. It is about honesty.
If someone takes a photograph of a building and then adds a second photograph of a different sky I believe that that individual should state that his/her image is a Composite Image and that he/she is actually submitting two photographs not one...but then again that is my opinion not that of the majority.
MatthewThompson
Well-known
That's the difference between photography and photo-illustration.
KenD
Film Shooter
Camera clubs tend to be, in my experience, aptly named. They are not photography clubs. The focus (pun intended) is clearly on craft oriented grocery-store-calender shots of puppies and sunsets. And who has the most expensive newest giga-pixel automatic everything smile recognizing camera.
pakeha
Well-known
I joined a Citreon car club, left quickly and was put off any kinda club for the rest of my life. Then i slipped up and joined a pistol club - now if you want mix with some real bankers join a pistol club:bang: [ non enlish as first lanuage ?, spell bankers with a w]
yes, you got it with this statement
QUOTE
Then there is the hierarchy. There is of course a committee, visiting judges, even one from the RPS (all hail) But in addition to this there is the WCGPF, or some such, the Alliance, The Federation, and so on. There seems to be an expectation that members submit to all sorts of competitions judging by the number of emails that I'm getting from the aforesaid Chairman.
yes, you got it with this statement
QUOTE
Then there is the hierarchy. There is of course a committee, visiting judges, even one from the RPS (all hail) But in addition to this there is the WCGPF, or some such, the Alliance, The Federation, and so on. There seems to be an expectation that members submit to all sorts of competitions judging by the number of emails that I'm getting from the aforesaid Chairman.
capitalK
Warrior Poet :P
I'm a little thankful there's no formal clubs in my city (70,000+ people) but I can also see where some kind of group could be attractive.
But I won't be the one to organize it from scratch.
But I won't be the one to organize it from scratch.
Sjixxxy
Well-known
I got a serious LOL from that.
I've never been able to bring myself to attend our regional camera club. The term Camera Club is enough to make me wary. Then one day I saw one of the photos that won one of their competitions. Typical photo of a local landmark run though the stained glass filter in photo shop. Eeep. Someday I'll attend it with anthropologist eyes.
Luckily we have a local alternative. A Photography group started by younger people. At the meetings we discuss business, a little bit of photography, and then we drink and socialize till everyone feels like going home. It is a good environment which has led to a lot of fun photography activities and work for the members.
Leigh Youdale
Well-known
I think they can work, but it takes careful formulation of raison-d'etre, norms (I won't call then "rules" and a clear understanding of what people want from associating like this.
Some of our members produce quite outstanding work in both colour and black and white, but there's also the cute puppy/lovely sunset, HDR landscapes genres well represented as well.
And yes, I think a lot of what we see is aptly called "collage" and yes, I think there should be a disclaimer if you've substantially messed with the image or substituted components of the image. Once you get past colour correction, brightness/contrast adjustment and sharpening of an image I think you're approaching slippery ground.
The idea of a small, informal group of like-minded enthusiasts meeting for coffee or pizza and maybe going off to do some shooting somewhere sound appealing to me.
Some of our members produce quite outstanding work in both colour and black and white, but there's also the cute puppy/lovely sunset, HDR landscapes genres well represented as well.
And yes, I think a lot of what we see is aptly called "collage" and yes, I think there should be a disclaimer if you've substantially messed with the image or substituted components of the image. Once you get past colour correction, brightness/contrast adjustment and sharpening of an image I think you're approaching slippery ground.
The idea of a small, informal group of like-minded enthusiasts meeting for coffee or pizza and maybe going off to do some shooting somewhere sound appealing to me.
easyrider
Photo addict
Just go to your local RFF meeting!
Just go to your local RFF meeting!
I have been to a few lectures at the local camera club. They were quite interesting. Club seems OK but a little too "salon" oriented in the work on display. I have never belonged to a photo club.
I have been to two RFF meetings and they were wonderfully unstructured.
I think photographers are not joiners by nature. There is another thread here about shy people behind the camera.
Just go to your local RFF meeting!
I have been to a few lectures at the local camera club. They were quite interesting. Club seems OK but a little too "salon" oriented in the work on display. I have never belonged to a photo club.
I have been to two RFF meetings and they were wonderfully unstructured.
I think photographers are not joiners by nature. There is another thread here about shy people behind the camera.
bmattock
Veteran
I used to belong to the Goldsboro Area Photography Club, and it was fantastic. Nothing like the negative experiences recounted here.
http://www.gapc.us
I have since left the area, but I know for a fact that a large (more than half?) of the membership were women, most did not have fancy cameras, and one consistent award-winner took great photos with a point-n-shoot film camera. No one was rich, and certainly no one was hung up on equipment. Just photography and friendship, that's pretty much it. One of the young ladies who was VP of the club for several years has since moved on and become a highly-successful and respected event and wedding photographer.
http://www.jacquelynnbuck.com/
I guess some clubs are better than others. They're certainly not all bad, I had a great experience at mine. Wish there was one like it here in Detroit.
http://www.gapc.us
I have since left the area, but I know for a fact that a large (more than half?) of the membership were women, most did not have fancy cameras, and one consistent award-winner took great photos with a point-n-shoot film camera. No one was rich, and certainly no one was hung up on equipment. Just photography and friendship, that's pretty much it. One of the young ladies who was VP of the club for several years has since moved on and become a highly-successful and respected event and wedding photographer.
http://www.jacquelynnbuck.com/
I guess some clubs are better than others. They're certainly not all bad, I had a great experience at mine. Wish there was one like it here in Detroit.
Good countering experience, Bill; and that sounds like a great club.
I joined the Boeing Employees Camera Club back in the 1960's shortly after hiring on. As you can imagine, it was large and structured. There were connections to regional and national organizations. Commentary on displayed photos and a panel of judges for competitive entries. They had model shoots and mini-trade-shows and such. I had recently spent some time in Istanbul and Paris, and I found that an exotic locale pretty much guaranteed favorable attention from the judges. This lost my respect and I faded away from the scene...
By contrast, our small Photography Club in my current rural community struggles to exist. It's in hiatus now but there's some talk of getting going again. With something like 20 members, half of whom may show up to any particular gathering, it's pretty loosely organized. We'd bring photos to show, usually on an agreed theme. Sometimes a local pro or lab operator etc could be co-opted for a presentation. We had photo excursions. Some of the members are gear-heads, and some artists who "sketch" with the camera, others who'd like to go pro, some are influenced by the university's art dept...
I joined the Boeing Employees Camera Club back in the 1960's shortly after hiring on. As you can imagine, it was large and structured. There were connections to regional and national organizations. Commentary on displayed photos and a panel of judges for competitive entries. They had model shoots and mini-trade-shows and such. I had recently spent some time in Istanbul and Paris, and I found that an exotic locale pretty much guaranteed favorable attention from the judges. This lost my respect and I faded away from the scene...
By contrast, our small Photography Club in my current rural community struggles to exist. It's in hiatus now but there's some talk of getting going again. With something like 20 members, half of whom may show up to any particular gathering, it's pretty loosely organized. We'd bring photos to show, usually on an agreed theme. Sometimes a local pro or lab operator etc could be co-opted for a presentation. We had photo excursions. Some of the members are gear-heads, and some artists who "sketch" with the camera, others who'd like to go pro, some are influenced by the university's art dept...