Roger Hicks
Veteran
Yeah...kevin m said:You've made that clear. But nobody here's saying anything about it. You can decorate the bottom of your fishtank with mint black Nikon SP's for all I care.
What I DO care about is that Leica isn't taking chances or innovating here in the digital age, the most exciting time in photography most of us will ever see.
And bicycle makers are SO predictable, sticking with lightweight, two-wheeled, human-powered vehicles. Where are the 3-wheeler, 2-tonne, nuclear powered models?
What do you actually WANT Leica to do? Because I'll bet you that 90%+ of their customers -- the people who keep Leica in business by actually buying their cameras, instread of vapouring on the internet -- want, well... M-series Leicas.
Cheers,
R.
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Al Kaplan
Veteran
I see lots of guys in their 50's and 60's sporting beards and ponytails, riding new Harleys or restored Indians, all the things they wanted to do or own when they were 20 but either couldn't afford or Momma wouldn't let them.
I see plenty of young guys in their teens and 20's who pay big bucks to look cool in jeans almost bleached white and worn through at the knees, perhaps a rip or two someplace, and cuffs frayed up past the hem. Maybe in another 40 years they'll be the ones searching out that brassed and dented Leica M2 or old Nikon F with half the black paint gone.
Or maybe there'll be a low labor cost place, like India is today, but instead of laboriously trashing perfectly good jeans they'll be working on all of the suddenly worthless but still pristine Leicas, bought for pennies on the dollar from the widows of all those collectors we have now. Dings, dents, and brass rules!
I see plenty of young guys in their teens and 20's who pay big bucks to look cool in jeans almost bleached white and worn through at the knees, perhaps a rip or two someplace, and cuffs frayed up past the hem. Maybe in another 40 years they'll be the ones searching out that brassed and dented Leica M2 or old Nikon F with half the black paint gone.
Or maybe there'll be a low labor cost place, like India is today, but instead of laboriously trashing perfectly good jeans they'll be working on all of the suddenly worthless but still pristine Leicas, bought for pennies on the dollar from the widows of all those collectors we have now. Dings, dents, and brass rules!
sepiareverb
genius and moron
NB23 said:
Now this brings an image to mind eh?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Maybe a recession won't be all bad for weeding out the financially overprivileged. And perhaps the mummy's boys.Al Kaplan said:
Since the 60s I've ridden bikes, broken in my own Levis and had a beard (in that order).
Cheers,
R.
kevin m
Veteran
At the risk of repeating myself:
1. A digital Leica "CL."
2. A Leica competitor to the Ricoh GR-D. Full analog manual controls. Small format digicams are, in spirit, the 'Barnack Leica' of today.
3. Make the M8 a true "pro-quality," no-excuses digital camera, and not a toy that a photographer keeps for "personal use." Dual card slots and weather sealing would be a good start. A dedicated ISO dial would be even better. If you could pack it in your bag and not bring a C-A-N-O-N to back you up, then it'd be worth $5,000.
Self-fulfilling prophecy. Keep asking the same people the same question and you'll get the same answer. Until those people die off.
The Leica M was the best RF of the film age, but the film age is over.
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marke
Well-known
Precious-s-s-s!
Precious-s-s-s!
I only have my Leicas to look at. It's comforting to look at my own reflection in the shiny, black paint of my MP. I have recently constructed an altar to Leica. It's located in a secret room in my house, and no common "photographer" is ever allowed to lay his eyes upon this sacred place. :angel:
I will NEVER lower my sacred Leicas to such common labor as "taking a picture"!
Precious-s-s-s!
I only have my Leicas to look at. It's comforting to look at my own reflection in the shiny, black paint of my MP. I have recently constructed an altar to Leica. It's located in a secret room in my house, and no common "photographer" is ever allowed to lay his eyes upon this sacred place. :angel:
I will NEVER lower my sacred Leicas to such common labor as "taking a picture"!
back alley
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What I DO care about is that Leica isn't taking chances or innovating here in the digital age, the most exciting time in photography most of us will ever see.
kevin, how does this fit re. my original post and why does it seem to pop up in so many of your posts, regardless of the topic?
joe
kevin, how does this fit re. my original post and why does it seem to pop up in so many of your posts, regardless of the topic?
joe
literiter
Well-known
-OK sure.kevin m said:
[/quote]
2. A Leica competitor to the Ricoh GR-D. Full analog manual controls. Small format digicams are, in spirit, the 'Barnack Leica' of today.
[/quote]
-OK again!
[/quote]
3. Make the M8 a true "pro-quality," no-excuses digital camera, and not a toy that a photographer keeps for "personal use." Dual card slots and weather sealing would be a good start. A dedicated ISO dial would be even better. If you could pack it in your bag and not bring a C-A-N-O-N to back you up, then it'd be worth $5,000.
[/quote]
-Right on! I'd even add that since Leitz was once an innovator, why not once again? A digital "M" seems a little redundant now.
[/quote]
The Leica M was the best RF of the film age, but the film age is over.
[/quote]
-I hope there is still a little room for film in this old world and I'd like to think a few more film cameras will roll off the assembly line, but if not try to build a digital camera that will be looked upon in the future as a real innovation.
kevin m
Veteran
You asked if cameras are tools, right? The thread wandered, as threads seem to do, but the rest seemed to follow from that.
kevin m
Veteran
Playing devil's advocate now:
How about that GR-D competitor has interchangeable lenses? Small, like the Kern-Switar lenses for the Bolex film cameras, with their coin-sized lens caps!
How about that GR-D competitor has interchangeable lenses? Small, like the Kern-Switar lenses for the Bolex film cameras, with their coin-sized lens caps!
back alley
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foto_fool said:Having a rough day, Joe?
The way I read Joe's original post, he set up the hobbyist/pro dichotomy. The evolution of the thread has introduced the collector/user split. I'm not seeing any direct Leica "bashing" by "Leica haters" here.
Sure there are some posters who seem compelled in every thread to express the same mantra of personal disdain for Leica evangelists - though not for the gear itself. I'm pretty sure it is not actually the average Leica-phile that the disdainers are railing against - more those Leica users who feel that a particular bit of red-dot branded gear gives them a special edge compared to other gear
Joe makes a good point that it would be better if these posters adopted bmattock's "live-and-let-live" approach - at least I personally would not miss seeing this divisive attitude expressed over and over.
As I wrote above, I think every one of us resides somewhere on several spectra of behavior simultaneously: user, collector, Leica/Zeiss/Canon/Nikon/etc. and on and on. And I agree with bmattock that each of us is entitled to our own equilibrium, without having to be subjected to the slings and arrows of those who don't share the same exact space. Why this should cause cognitive dissonance in some is a mystery to me.
no rough day, just get a little hot under the collar when the converstion gets twisted back to leica and what they do or don't do.
i was talking about pros using tools and hobbyists using cameras to have fun with. and how the hobbyist can get caught in the trap of thinking like a pro while not being a pro, fer instance...the sharpest lens, wide open, the build quality of a camera body...for a pro the perspective would be different than for me.
i would be some pissed off if my camera dies while shooting, but i wouldn't be losing any money because of it. (maybe repair costs)
i honestly don't see a great distinction but i do see a distinction.
business vs. pleasure
joe
Ororaro
Well-known
Man do you sound like a Canon fan, infected with the silly "L" marketing thing... Which is best and why and so on.
Leica is just a way of life, IMO. No need to compare it with nothing.
Leica is just a way of life, IMO. No need to compare it with nothing.
Ororaro
Well-known
Erik, how was your photography class?
Ororaro
Well-known
ErikFive said:Its next month
Aaaah! Can't wait to read about it!
cmogi10
Bodhisattva
This is how I see it,
It's like trying to tell a session guitar player that his worn out 60's strat, vintage 335 and impeccable custom shop Les Paul are all just tools. I mean, that's his job right? to make music with those tools?
Those aren't just tools
It's like trying to tell a session guitar player that his worn out 60's strat, vintage 335 and impeccable custom shop Les Paul are all just tools. I mean, that's his job right? to make music with those tools?
Those aren't just tools
Paulbe
Well-known
Hey Bill!! (Mattock) and Al! Glad to see you fellows posting again! Your inputs/observations are always excellent.
Bill--what kind of watches do you collect? I collected--for a while--23j RR pocket watches, Neat critters! Old Lionel trains aren't toys anymore, either...
Al--thanks for your observations borne of many years ecperience.
Leica camera CAN make pictures and they CAN be admired for their mechanical precision--I don't see the conflict.
You wanna collect something and have the bux--why not??
Thanks to all...
Bill--what kind of watches do you collect? I collected--for a while--23j RR pocket watches, Neat critters! Old Lionel trains aren't toys anymore, either...
Al--thanks for your observations borne of many years ecperience.
Leica camera CAN make pictures and they CAN be admired for their mechanical precision--I don't see the conflict.
You wanna collect something and have the bux--why not??
Thanks to all...
ddutchison
Well-known
WARNING! Contains hammer and saw p0rn.
WARNING! Contains hammer and saw p0rn.
Well maybe not Stanley, but how about a superior manufacturer like Estwing (...Mmmm, leather handles!). There is no functional reason why these hammers have to look so good, nothing useful to be gained by mirror-polishing them, and almost certainly, there are better synthetic materials available for the handle (though of course, they won't display a patina with long use the way leather will).
Infact Estwing also uses blue polyurethane for handles, but continues to produce this line as well... for the traditionalist. This is the Leica MP of hammers.
And check out the florid prose in this description of a common saw, again, a very Leica-like emotional appeal to values of professionalism and tradition, and the craftsmanship of the tool maker - all being used used to sell a saw.
Sure, a camera is just a tool, but tools are a very special catagory of object, and are venerated accordingly. For starters, the ability to make and use them is one thing that separates us from almost every other animal on the planet (crows and some apes being the exception).
They also extend our powers, and permit us to do things that would be otherwise impossible or even unimaginable. Ages ago we relied on shamans and talismans to do this, today we rely on tools and the people who make them - in other words tools perform the same function as magic once did, and are therefore appreciated for more than their mere capabilities.
WARNING! Contains hammer and saw p0rn.
kevin m said:
Well maybe not Stanley, but how about a superior manufacturer like Estwing (...Mmmm, leather handles!). There is no functional reason why these hammers have to look so good, nothing useful to be gained by mirror-polishing them, and almost certainly, there are better synthetic materials available for the handle (though of course, they won't display a patina with long use the way leather will).
Infact Estwing also uses blue polyurethane for handles, but continues to produce this line as well... for the traditionalist. This is the Leica MP of hammers.
And check out the florid prose in this description of a common saw, again, a very Leica-like emotional appeal to values of professionalism and tradition, and the craftsmanship of the tool maker - all being used used to sell a saw.
Sure, a camera is just a tool, but tools are a very special catagory of object, and are venerated accordingly. For starters, the ability to make and use them is one thing that separates us from almost every other animal on the planet (crows and some apes being the exception).
They also extend our powers, and permit us to do things that would be otherwise impossible or even unimaginable. Ages ago we relied on shamans and talismans to do this, today we rely on tools and the people who make them - in other words tools perform the same function as magic once did, and are therefore appreciated for more than their mere capabilities.
bmattock
Veteran
Paulbe said:
I collect (or did, leaving me with a substantial collection still) 1940's and 1950's era men's mechanical American-made wristwatches. Lot of Hamiltons, Elgins, Gruens, and so on. I have some modern watches (mechanical) made in Switzerland and Germany. Nothing too expensive - as usual, I like to collect but I keep it cheap. I have only a couple of pocket watches - including my grandfather's Elgin made in 1903. It keeps very good time.
Lionel you say?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wigwam/sets/72157601890292493/
And HO as well:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wigwam/sets/72157603352049060/
I'm not into model trains, but I do like them. I'm more of a big antique train guy, but wife says no can bring home.
mwooten
light user
cmogi10 said:
I've been thinking along this same line today. I read the posts yesterday, and the analogy of the hammer just didn't seem to fit. To me, the camera is analogous to a musical instrument. Think, as cmogi10 did, of various electric guitars. My Rick 330 feels (and sounds) different than my old beat up G&L.
bmattock
Veteran
kevin m said:
Yes, and you've made clear that you believe collectors are responsible for that. I find that line of reasoning illogical, so we have to disagree on that, it seems.
I'm neither a fan, nor a detractor, of Leica. They're fine instruments - I'd love to have one someday. I do believe they are kept alive primarily by their well-heeled collector/fans, and they'd be bankrupt otherwise.
They don't change quickly because they don't change quickly - that's their culture, cachet, and raison d'etre. While this can be charming and has certainly given them long-term appeal and a niche market, it also can work to their detriment. They did it with their too-little-too-late SLRs and now they are doing it again with their digital offerings.
Again - I'm not for 'em nor agin 'em. Wish them well. Hope to see them survive. But I do not for a moment believe they are kept afloat by the purchases of professional photographers.
HCB and Winogrand have left the building.