back alley
IMAGES
i've never had it happen but who knows?
all i knows is that lately my dried film has water spots and i'm getting a bit ticked off about it.
i have changed nothing in the process of how i dev/rinse/fix/wash my film.
jjoe
all i knows is that lately my dried film has water spots and i'm getting a bit ticked off about it.
i have changed nothing in the process of how i dev/rinse/fix/wash my film.
jjoe
markinlondon
Elmar user
Same here, Joe, far worse than when I used plain water. I think I'm just giving up on the stuff but have to say I did get a "bargain" bottle of ilfotol at Mr. Cad which I suspect they found at the back of the storeroom. I suppose it could grow something but I can't think what as it looks like an industrial detergent and I would have thought the concentrate wouldn't support life.
I will now do a final water rinse and "squeegee" with wet fingers.
Mark
I will now do a final water rinse and "squeegee" with wet fingers.
Mark
aterlecki
Established
I'd say just check your dilution in the water. I would get water spots when I only used a few drops of Photoflow as almost everyone recommends. For my water type those few drops were not enough to get the water sheeting off the film and some drops still clung on and created water spots. I now squirt much more wetting agent into my final bath and the problem has disappeared.
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
Joe: Try using distilled H20. I assume you are using this as a one-shot treatment and not storing it. Penny-wise and all that. . . I'm sure that this is old news but the detergent distroys (or at least lessens) the water's ability to form droplets (cohesion tension). Same basic idea as the "no spots" dishwashing detergent Cascade. Using distilled H20 as s final rinse (with the recommended amount of your favorite wetting agent) seems to me like a small price to pay given how much effort goes into producing every image! Good luck. Let us know if the culprit rears its head. . .
bmattock
Veteran
Ah, wetting agents...
A 'wetting agent' (beside being an ankle-biter in nappies) is essentially just a chemical agent that changes the surface tension of water. Some describe it as making water wetter. Normally, water has a tendency to 'bead up' on any hard surface. Tap water contains impurities, and when the droplet has evaporated, these impurities are left behind in the form of visible spots, which we obviously don't want.
We can reduce droplets by removing water, or by reducing the ability of water to form droplets (bead up). Squeegees and sponges and fingers are typically used to remove water from photographic film during the last stage of processing. These can cause streaking or even scratches, if abrasive particles are present.
We can also reduce spotting by reducing droplets. This is what the wetting agent is supposed to do. You may notice that wetting agents, when mixed with water vigorously, tends to foam up. It feels slippery, like soap, on the fingers. It washes off with more water, also like soap. In fact, soap (or detergent or washing-up powder or whatever you call it) is a wetting agent. Is Kodak Photo-Flo 2000 actually soap? Some have said so. I make no such claim, but I believe they have similarities.
We can also reduce spotting by reducing the particulate matter suspended in the water used to rinse the film. Some use distilled water for this purpose, but it should not be necessary. Filtered water has most particulate matter removed that we care about, as well as most of the chemicals that might cause problems (to us or our film), so it should be as useful as distilled water - perhaps more so - not all distilled water is filtered as well. Distilled means it has been boiled and the evaporate condensed and collected, not that it has been filtered as well.
None of these processes will remove the water that is absorbed into the emulsion of the film - that will evaporate in time, and that is why film is not 'dry' just because the shiny side seems dry (also why heated drying is a bad thing). But the spots show up on the shiny side, not the emulsion side, so in practical terms we do not need to be concerned with removing all the water from the emulsion side - time will do that for us.
Mistakes people make with wetting agents:
* Soak the film in it. This allows wetting agent to soak into the emulsion, which serves no purpose. 30 seconds is all that is required.
* Rinsing the film AGAIN with tap water after using wetting agents. This simply washes away the wetting agent - you might as well not have used it to begin with.
* Used in a very strong solution. Typically, the correct ratio is 1:200 as I recall. This is VERY LITTLE wetting agent to a great horking bunch of water. Too much makes the wetting agent itself leave visible residue behind.
For best results:
1) Correct dilution of wetting agent to water.
2) Use filtered water.
3) Short dip in diluted wetting agent, not a long soak.
4) Use some mechanical means to remove the majority of the standing water (fingers, squeegee, sponge, etc) so long as it does not leave scratches. A light touch is best.
Then hang the film in a dry and dustless environment, at room temperature, for at least two hours. One thing to remember now that the Northern Hemisphere is in winter - heat differentials can cause condensation. Film does not retain heat like say a drinking glass, but under the right conditions, it can condense water out of the air like any other object.
Last but not least - stop looking at it! Leave it be, especially if you're an obsessive-compulsive berk! Get a beer and chill or go online for a couple hours.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
PS - In answer to the original question, "Can a wetting agent go bad?" Ask any parent of teenagers.
A 'wetting agent' (beside being an ankle-biter in nappies) is essentially just a chemical agent that changes the surface tension of water. Some describe it as making water wetter. Normally, water has a tendency to 'bead up' on any hard surface. Tap water contains impurities, and when the droplet has evaporated, these impurities are left behind in the form of visible spots, which we obviously don't want.
We can reduce droplets by removing water, or by reducing the ability of water to form droplets (bead up). Squeegees and sponges and fingers are typically used to remove water from photographic film during the last stage of processing. These can cause streaking or even scratches, if abrasive particles are present.
We can also reduce spotting by reducing droplets. This is what the wetting agent is supposed to do. You may notice that wetting agents, when mixed with water vigorously, tends to foam up. It feels slippery, like soap, on the fingers. It washes off with more water, also like soap. In fact, soap (or detergent or washing-up powder or whatever you call it) is a wetting agent. Is Kodak Photo-Flo 2000 actually soap? Some have said so. I make no such claim, but I believe they have similarities.
We can also reduce spotting by reducing the particulate matter suspended in the water used to rinse the film. Some use distilled water for this purpose, but it should not be necessary. Filtered water has most particulate matter removed that we care about, as well as most of the chemicals that might cause problems (to us or our film), so it should be as useful as distilled water - perhaps more so - not all distilled water is filtered as well. Distilled means it has been boiled and the evaporate condensed and collected, not that it has been filtered as well.
None of these processes will remove the water that is absorbed into the emulsion of the film - that will evaporate in time, and that is why film is not 'dry' just because the shiny side seems dry (also why heated drying is a bad thing). But the spots show up on the shiny side, not the emulsion side, so in practical terms we do not need to be concerned with removing all the water from the emulsion side - time will do that for us.
Mistakes people make with wetting agents:
* Soak the film in it. This allows wetting agent to soak into the emulsion, which serves no purpose. 30 seconds is all that is required.
* Rinsing the film AGAIN with tap water after using wetting agents. This simply washes away the wetting agent - you might as well not have used it to begin with.
* Used in a very strong solution. Typically, the correct ratio is 1:200 as I recall. This is VERY LITTLE wetting agent to a great horking bunch of water. Too much makes the wetting agent itself leave visible residue behind.
For best results:
1) Correct dilution of wetting agent to water.
2) Use filtered water.
3) Short dip in diluted wetting agent, not a long soak.
4) Use some mechanical means to remove the majority of the standing water (fingers, squeegee, sponge, etc) so long as it does not leave scratches. A light touch is best.
Then hang the film in a dry and dustless environment, at room temperature, for at least two hours. One thing to remember now that the Northern Hemisphere is in winter - heat differentials can cause condensation. Film does not retain heat like say a drinking glass, but under the right conditions, it can condense water out of the air like any other object.
Last but not least - stop looking at it! Leave it be, especially if you're an obsessive-compulsive berk! Get a beer and chill or go online for a couple hours.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
PS - In answer to the original question, "Can a wetting agent go bad?" Ask any parent of teenagers.
back alley
IMAGES
how i did things has been fine in the past.
no change in water as far as i know, no change in process etc.
but all of a sudden i'm getting dried water spots.
and i wonder if the wetting agent can lose effectiveness.
even as a one shot it lasts forever at a drop in the tank per.
joe
no change in water as far as i know, no change in process etc.
but all of a sudden i'm getting dried water spots.
and i wonder if the wetting agent can lose effectiveness.
even as a one shot it lasts forever at a drop in the tank per.
joe
jano
Evil Bokeh
bmattock said:
How about just giving the film-on-reel a good shake to send the water flying? You're not touching the film, and if you're in an environment with not much air borne dust, hey.. it works!
bmattock
Veteran
back alley said:
No, wetting agent does not go bad. It is a simple emulsifier. It can become contaminated with other things, and that can damage it - but that's not very likely.
If you're getting dried water spots all of a sudden, something else has changed.
It is winter in Canada - houses are closed up, air is very dry. Water evaporates faster in dry air than in moist air.
If your wetting agent does not have the chance to break up the water droplets before they can dry, then that might cause the problem.
Failing that, there is something in your water or air. That's all it could be.
Personally, I think it is a function of T in your case. Come spring, the problem will go away. Until then, change your process. Maybe squeegee?
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
bmattock
Veteran
jano said:How about just giving the film-on-reel a good shake to send the water flying? You're not touching the film, and if you're in an environment with not much air borne dust, hey.. it works!
Yes, of course. I don't dry my film on-reel, so I didn't consider that...but no reason that would not work as well.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
back alley
IMAGES
ok, come to think of it, since the heart attack i have a harder time keeping warm and this winter the temp in the house is significantly higher than normal.
so there ARE other variables. i even noted to myself that the film has been drying fsater lately.
very good holmes!
joe
so there ARE other variables. i even noted to myself that the film has been drying fsater lately.
very good holmes!
joe
paulfitz
Established
I have had mold grow in a working solution of photo-flo at the 1:200 diliution. I now use distilled water and the 1:200 and change it about once every two months. I think it's cheap compared to the effort put in. Where I live, the water can leave stains so I go with distilled in the final stage. Tap for everything else.
Poptart
Screw Loose & Fancy-Free
Yes. Problem solved!
bmattock
Veteran
paulfitz said:
I stand corrected. I never thought of making my Photo-Flo dilution until I needed the stuff. I always do it when I need it, an eyedropper in 1 liter of water.
And filtered water works better than distilled. Cheaper, too.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
markinlondon
Elmar user
bmattock said:
Bill, you're a great help as ever. I think you've got to the bottom of my problems too. Mucky water and fast drying due to heated house would explain everything.
Thanks,
Mark