mjm6
Established
Hello folks,
I am a fairly new user to the 35mm RF market, but I have lots of experience with SLR's over the years, and have worked with LF and ULF cameras almmost exclusively for the last 5 or so. This is my first post here, but I have been reading in the archives for a while, and done a lot of searching on the Web.
I got a Voigtlander R camera last year, and it has gotten me into the RF realm.
I would like a small RF camera for backpacking purposes, possibly with a collapsible 50mm lens. I have a FED 1 camera on the way, but I really think that I would probably prefer a Canon RF due to the quality of their cameras (I have extensive experience with Canon, starting with a FT/QL of my father's and going from there).
I wear eyeglasses, so that is a concern. I'm not so sure that the viewfinder on the P would be a problem for me, as at least initially I would probably not go wider than the 50mm, but I don't think that the P can take the collapsible lenses, is that correct?
Other than the P, can anyone recommend other models that will be good one's to look at? I want an inexpensive user camera, not a collectible, so it needs to be operationable (or repairable), and small, reliable, and rugged.
Can anyone give me some advice on models? Also, who are reliable dealers and other outlets for these cameras (other than the auction site)? What issues do I need to know about when purchasing an old Canon RF?
Thanks,
---Michael
I am a fairly new user to the 35mm RF market, but I have lots of experience with SLR's over the years, and have worked with LF and ULF cameras almmost exclusively for the last 5 or so. This is my first post here, but I have been reading in the archives for a while, and done a lot of searching on the Web.
I got a Voigtlander R camera last year, and it has gotten me into the RF realm.
I would like a small RF camera for backpacking purposes, possibly with a collapsible 50mm lens. I have a FED 1 camera on the way, but I really think that I would probably prefer a Canon RF due to the quality of their cameras (I have extensive experience with Canon, starting with a FT/QL of my father's and going from there).
I wear eyeglasses, so that is a concern. I'm not so sure that the viewfinder on the P would be a problem for me, as at least initially I would probably not go wider than the 50mm, but I don't think that the P can take the collapsible lenses, is that correct?
Other than the P, can anyone recommend other models that will be good one's to look at? I want an inexpensive user camera, not a collectible, so it needs to be operationable (or repairable), and small, reliable, and rugged.
Can anyone give me some advice on models? Also, who are reliable dealers and other outlets for these cameras (other than the auction site)? What issues do I need to know about when purchasing an old Canon RF?
Thanks,
---Michael
back alley
IMAGES
the p will take a collapsible but the lens cannot collapse all the way in. kinda defeats the purpose.
the older canons, the bottom loaders will accept the collapsible without problem.
the advantage of the older canons is that they are smaller and lighter than the p.
disadvantage is smaller viewfinders and not nearly as bright as the p.
useable enough though.
the best screwmount bottom loader is the ivsb 2. it has a slightly bigger vf view.
the ivsb is a great camera also and can be had a bit cheaper than the 2 model because the vf is a bit smaller.
i quite like my ivsb with the 50/1.9 collapsible.
hth,
joe
the older canons, the bottom loaders will accept the collapsible without problem.
the advantage of the older canons is that they are smaller and lighter than the p.
disadvantage is smaller viewfinders and not nearly as bright as the p.
useable enough though.
the best screwmount bottom loader is the ivsb 2. it has a slightly bigger vf view.
the ivsb is a great camera also and can be had a bit cheaper than the 2 model because the vf is a bit smaller.
i quite like my ivsb with the 50/1.9 collapsible.
hth,
joe
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
The biggest question in choosing one of the older Canon models is how many "convenience" features you need. This is strictly my own categorization scheme, but I'd say there are four generations of usable interchangeable-lens Canon RFs, based on viewing and usability features:
-- Generation 1: Finder with no bright frames; old-style, rotating fast/slow shutter speed dials; knob advance and rewind. (Example: IVSb.)
-- Generation 2: Finder with no bright frames; old-style, rotating fast/slow shutter speed dials; rapid advance and/or rewind. (Examples: V-T, L1.)
-- Generation 3: Finder with reflected frames; modern-type single shutter speed dial; rapid advance and rewind. (Examples: VI-T, P.)
-- Generation 4: Finder with projected framelines; modern-type single shutter speed dial; rapid avance and rewind. (Examples: 7, 7s.)
You can pick which generation would be best for you depending on which feature sets are most important. For example, somebody who wants a simple, rugged camera and doesn't mind the lack of ANY of the modern usability features might be perfectly happy with one of the Generation 1 cameras, which are wonderfully compact and solid.
On the other hand, somebody who likes to shoot quickly and goes through a lot of film probably wouldn't enjoy the slow knob-type advance and rewind on the Gen 1 cameras; s/he would choose from the later generations based on what shutter-dial and finder features were important.
If that person doesn't care about finder framelines and doesn't mind an old-fashioned lift-and-turn shutter speed dial, one of the Gen 2 cameras would be very nice. They have excellent contrasty rangefinders. Different ones have different combinations of film-advance and rewind options, so you'd need to check a reference to make sure you got the one you need.
But then there are people like myself, who shoot a lot in dimly-lit places. Under these conditions, a lift-and-turn speed dial is a big nuisance; I'd rather be able to switch from 1/250 to 1/60 by counting clicks, rather than having to take my eye away from the finder and look at the dial. That limits me to Gen 3 and Gen 4 cameras.
Once you've restricted yourself to Gen 3 and Gen 4, you have to decide if you can tolerate the Gen 3 cameras' less contrasty finder frames, in order to get their more beautiful finish and slightly more compact size; or if you'd rather go to the clearer, projected frames of the Gen 4 cameras, even though their chromework isn't quite as pretty and they're fractionally larger and clunkier-looking.
Finally, once you know which generation of Canon is right for you, you'll need to research other minor features that might or might not be important (such as flash sync and frame coverage) and then start shopping for the best example of the model that best fits your needs. That's when it starts getting fun! Good luck and good hunting...
-- Generation 1: Finder with no bright frames; old-style, rotating fast/slow shutter speed dials; knob advance and rewind. (Example: IVSb.)
-- Generation 2: Finder with no bright frames; old-style, rotating fast/slow shutter speed dials; rapid advance and/or rewind. (Examples: V-T, L1.)
-- Generation 3: Finder with reflected frames; modern-type single shutter speed dial; rapid advance and rewind. (Examples: VI-T, P.)
-- Generation 4: Finder with projected framelines; modern-type single shutter speed dial; rapid avance and rewind. (Examples: 7, 7s.)
You can pick which generation would be best for you depending on which feature sets are most important. For example, somebody who wants a simple, rugged camera and doesn't mind the lack of ANY of the modern usability features might be perfectly happy with one of the Generation 1 cameras, which are wonderfully compact and solid.
On the other hand, somebody who likes to shoot quickly and goes through a lot of film probably wouldn't enjoy the slow knob-type advance and rewind on the Gen 1 cameras; s/he would choose from the later generations based on what shutter-dial and finder features were important.
If that person doesn't care about finder framelines and doesn't mind an old-fashioned lift-and-turn shutter speed dial, one of the Gen 2 cameras would be very nice. They have excellent contrasty rangefinders. Different ones have different combinations of film-advance and rewind options, so you'd need to check a reference to make sure you got the one you need.
But then there are people like myself, who shoot a lot in dimly-lit places. Under these conditions, a lift-and-turn speed dial is a big nuisance; I'd rather be able to switch from 1/250 to 1/60 by counting clicks, rather than having to take my eye away from the finder and look at the dial. That limits me to Gen 3 and Gen 4 cameras.
Once you've restricted yourself to Gen 3 and Gen 4, you have to decide if you can tolerate the Gen 3 cameras' less contrasty finder frames, in order to get their more beautiful finish and slightly more compact size; or if you'd rather go to the clearer, projected frames of the Gen 4 cameras, even though their chromework isn't quite as pretty and they're fractionally larger and clunkier-looking.
Finally, once you know which generation of Canon is right for you, you'll need to research other minor features that might or might not be important (such as flash sync and frame coverage) and then start shopping for the best example of the model that best fits your needs. That's when it starts getting fun! Good luck and good hunting...
mjm6
Established
That was fast, I hadn't even logged off before I got some great feedback!
The information you two have provided is great; much more valuable than I have found anywhere on the web so far. It seems that people don't really discuss the merits of the Canon RF cameras the way that the FSU cameras are discussed.
I'll look into what I have learned from these two posts, and I am looking forward to any other opinons that anyone may have.
I believe my one big preference would be having a combined viewfinder and rangefinder, which eliminates some of the older options (which would be out of my price range anyway), but it does not eliminate any of the II or III models, is that correct?
I'm not used to having convenience in my cameras (I'm a ULF shooter), so I'm not terribly concerned about having it in this one either.
Somewhere in there, Canon started using metal shutters (in the IV series?). Is there a practical reason to avoid a cloth shutter or vice-versa?
---Michael
The information you two have provided is great; much more valuable than I have found anywhere on the web so far. It seems that people don't really discuss the merits of the Canon RF cameras the way that the FSU cameras are discussed.
I'll look into what I have learned from these two posts, and I am looking forward to any other opinons that anyone may have.
I believe my one big preference would be having a combined viewfinder and rangefinder, which eliminates some of the older options (which would be out of my price range anyway), but it does not eliminate any of the II or III models, is that correct?
I'm not used to having convenience in my cameras (I'm a ULF shooter), so I'm not terribly concerned about having it in this one either.
Somewhere in there, Canon started using metal shutters (in the IV series?). Is there a practical reason to avoid a cloth shutter or vice-versa?
---Michael
Canon used the stainless steel shutters on the late Canon Vt Deluxe, Canon P, Canon VI-t, Canon VI-L, and Canon 7's. They are slightly louder than the cloth shutters. They do not burn through, like the cloth. If you have cloth shutters, like on the FSU cameras, avoid leaving the camera pointed at the sun. You do not worry about it nearly as much with the Nikon titanium foil or Canon steel shutters.
back alley
IMAGES
cloth shutters are quieter than metal.
metal doesn't burn pinholes if left facing the sun.
not sure when the metal shutters started but i think maybe with the vi series. the iv series have cloth.
if you're interested in a ivsb with 50/1.9 i know where you can get a very clean and proven kit.
joe
metal doesn't burn pinholes if left facing the sun.
not sure when the metal shutters started but i think maybe with the vi series. the iv series have cloth.
if you're interested in a ivsb with 50/1.9 i know where you can get a very clean and proven kit.
joe
John Shriver
Well-known
ALL the Canon RF's have a combined RF/VF window. Well, since the S-II, which is the earliest one that is at all common. Big advantage over the screw-mount Leica's!
However, all models in II,III, and IV series have variable magnification viewfinders, so that you can get up to 1.5X magnification of the rangefinder spot, and focus as accurately as a Leica III series can. (When necessary).
Also, I would add a generation to jlw's response: Generation 1a. The IVSB2, IID2, IIF2, and IIS2 have a rather improved viewfinder. Larger exit pupil, frame edge more in focus, less squinty. I definitely prefer my IVSB2 to my IIF. These could be the best backpackers, in terms of finder quality for a given size and weight.
But, only the 50mm and 100mm lenses are really usable on the bottom-loaders without an accesory finder. If you want a 35mm, then you're in finder territory, which gives an advantage to some of the later models.
There is no reason to avoid a cloth shutter. Readily replaceable as part of normal maintenance. Well, unless you're in the habit of being careless and burning holes in shutters with the sun. The metal shutters are better in many ways, but replacements are not available.
Be careful about the V and VI series, however, they are nasty about scratching eyeglass lenses. The knurled magnification wheel is right next to the eyepeice.
However, all models in II,III, and IV series have variable magnification viewfinders, so that you can get up to 1.5X magnification of the rangefinder spot, and focus as accurately as a Leica III series can. (When necessary).
Also, I would add a generation to jlw's response: Generation 1a. The IVSB2, IID2, IIF2, and IIS2 have a rather improved viewfinder. Larger exit pupil, frame edge more in focus, less squinty. I definitely prefer my IVSB2 to my IIF. These could be the best backpackers, in terms of finder quality for a given size and weight.
But, only the 50mm and 100mm lenses are really usable on the bottom-loaders without an accesory finder. If you want a 35mm, then you're in finder territory, which gives an advantage to some of the later models.
There is no reason to avoid a cloth shutter. Readily replaceable as part of normal maintenance. Well, unless you're in the habit of being careless and burning holes in shutters with the sun. The metal shutters are better in many ways, but replacements are not available.
Be careful about the V and VI series, however, they are nasty about scratching eyeglass lenses. The knurled magnification wheel is right next to the eyepeice.
Sam66
Hikikomori
Michael,
I wear eyeglasses too, and the P is fine to me, 50mm frame is 100% visible with my glasses on, however the 35mm frame is out of luck - even with contact lenses on, I couldn't see them. Anyway if 50mm is your main lens, it is not a real problem not to see the 35mm frame, and the 1x finder is definitely a plus. P's finder has parallax compensation by moving the framelines, its framelines are however etched rather then projected like 7 or Leica M or CV bessas.
Canon started to use metal shutter (plastic coated stainless steel) in V/VI series, so you won't burn a hole on the cloth shutter curtains if you've forgotton to have your lens cap on. The stainless steel shutter itself is wrinkle prone, but it is solely an cosmetic issue and wouldn't harm the accuracy of shutter timing. Leica is still using cloth shutter today in their MP and M7, so I guess there is no reason to avoid them, just ask and check carefully before handing on your cash..
If you want a really small RF, have you look at those Canonet with fixed 40mm lens? If you prefer a changeble lens RF, a well-used 7 with a 50/1.8 could be a good choice as I feel it to be slightly lighter then its earlier borthers .. though a little bit taller (and less handsome!).
I wear eyeglasses too, and the P is fine to me, 50mm frame is 100% visible with my glasses on, however the 35mm frame is out of luck - even with contact lenses on, I couldn't see them. Anyway if 50mm is your main lens, it is not a real problem not to see the 35mm frame, and the 1x finder is definitely a plus. P's finder has parallax compensation by moving the framelines, its framelines are however etched rather then projected like 7 or Leica M or CV bessas.
Canon started to use metal shutter (plastic coated stainless steel) in V/VI series, so you won't burn a hole on the cloth shutter curtains if you've forgotton to have your lens cap on. The stainless steel shutter itself is wrinkle prone, but it is solely an cosmetic issue and wouldn't harm the accuracy of shutter timing. Leica is still using cloth shutter today in their MP and M7, so I guess there is no reason to avoid them, just ask and check carefully before handing on your cash..
If you want a really small RF, have you look at those Canonet with fixed 40mm lens? If you prefer a changeble lens RF, a well-used 7 with a 50/1.8 could be a good choice as I feel it to be slightly lighter then its earlier borthers .. though a little bit taller (and less handsome!).
lawrence
Veteran
In my opinion the nicest Canon is the L1, however the finder is definitely an eyeglass-scratcher. I am just now investigating something called "liquid electrical tape", which I plan to put on the L1 finder to see if this solves the problem. By the way, some people mistakenly believe that the little wheel beside the finder does the scratching but this is folklore -- it's the finder itself that has the sharp edges, your glasses won't touch the wheel.
I've owned a P and although the finder was fine with my glasses, the view through it wasn't. Firstly, you can't see the 35mm framelines (not all of them at once) and secondly the finder magnification is too high in my opinion (another bit of folklore is that 1:1 finders are a good idea but I completely disagree with this because it is difficult to see the whole scene without scanning from side to side -- lower magnification finders enable you to easily see the whole scene without scanning).
If you want floating, parallax corrected frameslines then go for the 7 instead of the P -- the 35mm framelines are fully visible even if you're wearing glasses. Only problem with the 7 is that it is rather big and has no accessory shoe but I still prefer it to the P, which in my opinion is somewhat over rated. But personally I prefer the L1 to either of them.
I've owned a P and although the finder was fine with my glasses, the view through it wasn't. Firstly, you can't see the 35mm framelines (not all of them at once) and secondly the finder magnification is too high in my opinion (another bit of folklore is that 1:1 finders are a good idea but I completely disagree with this because it is difficult to see the whole scene without scanning from side to side -- lower magnification finders enable you to easily see the whole scene without scanning).
If you want floating, parallax corrected frameslines then go for the 7 instead of the P -- the 35mm framelines are fully visible even if you're wearing glasses. Only problem with the 7 is that it is rather big and has no accessory shoe but I still prefer it to the P, which in my opinion is somewhat over rated. But personally I prefer the L1 to either of them.
airds
Well-known
Canon eyeglass-scratchers
Canon eyeglass-scratchers
I've found a good solution to this eyeglass problem is Aki-Asahi.com's
Leica M2/M3 Eye Piece Patch - fitting self explatory! And I see F.S.U. camera types to come. Although, not a perfect fit for other cameras, I've used them on a GIII, and a Demi, etc.
Also, to prevent camera body scratches from the split rings and/or metal strap fittings on camera lugs, his Strap Lug covers & Rings an auction on ebay at present (can't quite locate them on his website ... ) are a very cheap & elegant solution.
Hopefully of use, rdgs
Canon eyeglass-scratchers
I've found a good solution to this eyeglass problem is Aki-Asahi.com's
Leica M2/M3 Eye Piece Patch - fitting self explatory! And I see F.S.U. camera types to come. Although, not a perfect fit for other cameras, I've used them on a GIII, and a Demi, etc.
Also, to prevent camera body scratches from the split rings and/or metal strap fittings on camera lugs, his Strap Lug covers & Rings an auction on ebay at present (can't quite locate them on his website ... ) are a very cheap & elegant solution.
Hopefully of use, rdgs
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Thanks, very useful suggestion, rdgs! I've ordered a pack of 10ea for $5.99. these are the same design as the protectors and rings supplied with the Contax G-series cameras.
CleverName
Well-known
Michael, For all the specs and features of all the canon rangefinders, (and other canons), check out the canon camera museum. http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/index.html
I often jump between them and ebay
I often jump between them and ebay
mjm6
Established
John Shriver said:
This is starting to sound like the direction I probably want to go. I've been looking around and it appears that these are distinguished by the modern logarithmic shutter speed progression. Is that correct?
I have no need for flash sync, so it may be the II D2 that would make sense, but I suspect there are more VI Sb2 cameras out there, so that would be the other model to be looking for. I guess any '-2' model listed above would be suitable.
Can anyone give me some fair price ranges for these models?
I'd like to get a 1.9 collapsible lens for it, and eventually a 50mm 1.4 for low light shooting. I've seen the lens pricing guide, but noticed that the collapsable 1.9 isn't listed. Any price guides for that one?
I'll probably also get a P or L at some time in the future, but for now, I'm more focused on the small camera for light travel.
I can see that these cameras may be somewhat addicting, what with all the variations and subtle differences...
---Michael
airds
Well-known
Canon Rangefinder Bible
Canon Rangefinder Bible
The best reference book for Canon Rangefinders is Peter Dechert's Canon Rangefinder Cameras 1933-68
"A complete history of the Canon Rangefinder cameras. Every model is described, as well as their lenses, variations, numbers etc. 215 x 150mm. 200 pages. 220 b&w pictures. Casebound. Hove Books ISBN 0-906447-30-5 "
Usually loads of second hand copies on abebooks .... or occasionally eBay
Canon Rangefinder Bible
The best reference book for Canon Rangefinders is Peter Dechert's Canon Rangefinder Cameras 1933-68
"A complete history of the Canon Rangefinder cameras. Every model is described, as well as their lenses, variations, numbers etc. 215 x 150mm. 200 pages. 220 b&w pictures. Casebound. Hove Books ISBN 0-906447-30-5 "
Usually loads of second hand copies on abebooks .... or occasionally eBay
harry01562
Registered semi-lurker
airds said:
Definitely of use... I've ordered the 10 pack of the eye piece patches and 8 of the strap lug covers. He's got some other interesting things on his site, and the prices seem very realistic. I also mentioned interest in the Zorki 1 and Kiev patches, that are not available yet. Most of us could get use out of these, I would imagine.
Thanks again
Harry
harry01562
Registered semi-lurker
Prices of cameras and lenses
Prices of cameras and lenses
The prices seem to be volatile, at this point. I've heard speculation that the recent advances in Leica prices have had an effect on the early Canon gear, especially the lenses. The IVSb2 is an excellent choice, relatively common, and a great shooter among the bottom loaders. You should be able to get a decent one for $200-250, maybe a bit less. The 50/1.9 was cheap until recently. Lately it seems to be bringing around $100 for a clean example with good glass.
You might try looking at some of the better dealers, to help eliminate possible problems with auctions. Most of the better ones have repair facilities, either in-house or available, and provide some type of warranty.
I think you'll be pleased with the overall fit and finish of these, and a good one is also very fine mechanically. This was the ultimate in a bottom loader from Canon.
Harry
Prices of cameras and lenses
The prices seem to be volatile, at this point. I've heard speculation that the recent advances in Leica prices have had an effect on the early Canon gear, especially the lenses. The IVSb2 is an excellent choice, relatively common, and a great shooter among the bottom loaders. You should be able to get a decent one for $200-250, maybe a bit less. The 50/1.9 was cheap until recently. Lately it seems to be bringing around $100 for a clean example with good glass.
You might try looking at some of the better dealers, to help eliminate possible problems with auctions. Most of the better ones have repair facilities, either in-house or available, and provide some type of warranty.
I think you'll be pleased with the overall fit and finish of these, and a good one is also very fine mechanically. This was the ultimate in a bottom loader from Canon.
Harry
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
mjm6 said:
Yes, and they've also got a little pointer in the middle of the shutter-speed-dial hub that lets you check what speed is set, whether the camera is wound or not. Seems like a small thing, but it took about three decades for camera manufacturers to think of it! (Yes, I know the Nikon S2 has a similar pointer, but I don't know who thought of it first.)
Once you've decided on one of the last-series bottom loaders (to get the benefit of the larger exit pupil) I'd say don't worry about the details of which flash sync arrangements, 1/500 vs. 1/1000 top speed, etc. Just get the best example you can find that fts in your price range. There were several minor variants among the family:
- IVSB2 - 1/1000 sec, slow speeds, X and bulb sync.
- IIS2 - Same as above, except no 1/1000 speed.
- IID2 - Same as IIS2 except no flash sync.
- IIF2 - Same as IIS2 but sync for bulbs only.
All were produced in about the same quantity (16,000 or so units each) except the IIF2, of which only about 2,600 were made, making it correspondingly harder to find.
None of these variants had any model identification on the camera body, meaning that often they're mis-identified or un-identified when they show up on eBay. Quick visual check: If it's got the pointer in the middle of the fast-speed-dial hub, it's one of the "2" models with the desirable improved finder optics, so if you don't care about 1/1000 or flash sync, you can just look for ANY Canon with this pointer and go for it!
mjm6
Established
Thanks for all the advice everyone.
I'm on the lookout for the IVSb2 / IIS2 / IID2 / IIF2 combo of cameras. If anyone has one they wish to part with, or can point me towards a fair priced functioning model, I'd be interested.
I'll be hunting for one of these until I find one that suits my needs.
I'm also looking for a collapsible 50mm 1.9 to go along with it.
---Michael
I'm on the lookout for the IVSb2 / IIS2 / IID2 / IIF2 combo of cameras. If anyone has one they wish to part with, or can point me towards a fair priced functioning model, I'd be interested.
I'll be hunting for one of these until I find one that suits my needs.
I'm also looking for a collapsible 50mm 1.9 to go along with it.
---Michael