Canon: They see a grim future for digital camera market

[goamules]

My navy buddy pinged me about the value of some old Nikon lenses he inherited. I asked him what camera he uses, suggesting he may want to get a Nikon. "I still use that same first model Canon EOS I got in Singapore when the ship pulled in". That was in 1987. He is a very skilled technical person, and all we did was read camera and stereo magazines in the day. The point is, most people not on camera forums buy one camera...and are done for decades.

I heard a radio report last night about Apples slipping iPhone sales. Same reason: people have stopped upgrading to the latest and greatest every 18 months. They stick with "good enough" and stop the expected consumer treadmill.

I bought a first model M4/3 and used it for about 5 years. Then upgraded to a Fuji XE-1 and have used it at least 7-8 years. I have NO desire to jump to the new models every year. None.... That's why I shoot film...I like old stuff that lasts.

 

[Ted Striker]

There are three labs here in one of the largest cities in the US. They only do developing and printing runs when they have enough orders to make the most efficient use of chemistry.
As for your friends in the US, water seeks its own level. You choose to converse with like minded people, therefore you see more prints from your skewed sample space.
Phil Forrest

Yes, the lab that I use rarely does printing runs due to the fact that few people request prints. Of course, they rarely do even developing runs as there is only enough demand for 1 run per week.

 

[Ted Striker]

Ok, let’s relax. I make photo books and that’s printing. Many people do this too. Also, the US does have plenty of photo kiosks to print from phones or sd cards in malls or target or whatever. It may not be the high quality printing you guys have in mind, but people still print. Adorama prints ALOT!

Yes, I see those kiosks at Walgreens and CVS. They are typically abandoned by the store staff because few if any requests for prints come in. These observations are clear and consistent.

 

[Ted Striker]

No, they don't pay 15,000$ for a H6 with film back.
$15,000 is the price with digital back included.

Cheers, Jan

OK, I'm sure that few if any photographers are dropping $8,000 on a new Hassy to shoot film. There's probably some, but hardly enough to call a resurgence or even sustain a product line.

This is my opinion.

 

[Calzone]

I heard a radio report last night about Apples slipping iPhone sales. Same reason: people have stopped upgrading to the latest and greatest every 18 months. They stick with "good enough" and stop the expected consumer treadmill.

G,

Perhaps I'm like those Iphone purchasers; a Mononchrome and a SL, both now old cameras, that were released years ago, still remain good cameras.

Also due to expense it is a matter of being practical to be happy with what one owns and try to utilize these expensive items for the longest time.

The Iphone 10 is not inexpensive either.

Cal

 

[Ted Striker]

G,

Perhaps I'm like those Iphone purchasers; a Mononchrome and a SL, both now old cameras, that were released years ago, still remain good cameras.

Also due to expense it is a matter of being practical to be happy with what one owns and try to utilize these expensive items for the longest time.

The Iphone 10 is not inexpensive either.

Cal

Yes, the iPhone X costs a fair amount of money. I bought one replacing my iPhone 6 and I expect it to last 4 years at the least.

The camera on it is quite good. I have long since given up carrying a p & s digital camera.

 

[willie_901]

Phones vs Cameras, Some Thoughts

Phones vs Cameras, Some Thoughts

The mobile phone has created a new types of photography - transient photography.

One of these is disposable images. Most phone images have a transient use. You make the image, text it to friends and, or relatives; they view it and within days or weeks it's never viewed again. There is no intent nor interest in any sort of permanent record. How often are selfies viewed one week after they are made?

Another is visual note-taking. A document or object of interest is photographed for the singe purpose of making a temporary record. Usually the record is short lived (days or weeks(. Eventually the record is irrelevant.

Very few consumers are going to use a stand-alone still camera for transient purposes.

The growth of instax photography is an offspring of transient photography. Everyone shares transient digital images. So it seems unique to share a transient printed image. Some may store these images in an organized fashion, but most of them are displayed casually and replaced by newer images. The older images are eventually lost or even discarded. A very small percent are stored in albums.

Image Quality Is Not a Priority

Many mentioned above the newest mobile phones create acceptable images in moderately bright light. I agree. In low light images are automatically filtered (noise reduction). Compared to a new still camera, the IQ is significantly lower. However, most consumers couldn't care less. The images are viewed on small displays which minimizes image degradation due to photon noise. The perceived image quality is sufficient. Convenience and image content are valued much more than rendering aesthetics.

It's 1960 All Over Again

In terms of consumer photography things haven't changed that much. The Kodak Brownie, Instamatic cameras didn't produce the IQ offered by a Leica M, or film SLRs. Friends and family members saw the prints and a significant number were stored in photo albums for occasional viewing. Convenience and cost were valued much more than rendering aesthetics. A relatively small number of consumers transitioned to cameras with more flexibility and IQ.

There Will Always Be A Still Camera Market

People who become interested in photography as a means of self-expression and documentation will eventually become more interested in IQ and flexibility at the expense of convenience. These people will become curious about still cameras. More people are making photographs today than ever before. The small percentage of those consumers who are candidates for entering the still camera market are significant.

Camera companies should market to the segment of mobile phone users who could become interested in non-transient photography. The ads should appeal to consumers' egos (you are an artist, so you deserve a real camera) and they should attack the weaknesses of phone cameras.

The total size of digital camera market will continue to shrink relative to phone cameras. The still camera market exists because of human nature which is essentially a constant. I think there will be enough new photographers to sustain still-camera brands who adapt and are flexible enough to become best of the best.

FUJIFILM recently introduced two hybrid instax cameras, the SQUARE SQ10 and SQ20. The SQ20 has an automatic collage mode and a selfie-mirror system for film or digital imaging. The digital image mode for these hybrids could be viewed as a gateway for those consumers who might transition into FUJFILM's basic APS-C product line. Then GAS kicks in.

 

[HHPhoto]

OK, I'm sure that few if any photographers are dropping $8,000 on a new Hassy to shoot film. There's probably some, but hardly enough to call a resurgence or even sustain a product line.

At DW Photo in Germany even the whole company is based on making a high-end medium format film camera, the Hy6 Mod.2 + lenses.
They don't make digital backs.

I have asked Hasselblad at Photokina why their latest models are compatible with film backs again (the H3 and H4 were not). Their answer: Demand. The photographers want an additional film option.

This is my opinion.

And an opinion is not the same as a fact. Your opinion that - quote: "no one is printing anymore" - is proven as completely wrong by looking at the active companies and their sales numbers who are working in the photo printing business.

Cheers, Jan

 

[Calzone]

Yes, the iPhone X costs a fair amount of money. I bought one replacing my iPhone 6 and I expect it to last 4 years at the least.

The camera on it is quite good. I have long since given up carrying a p & s digital camera.

Ted,

My blogger gal replaced an Iphone 8 with a Iphone 10.

For her the camera upgrade was a big deal and a rather big jump.

She makes mucho income doing her blog, so pretty much the upgrade is a tax writeoff. She also kills phones. Pretty much they barely make it to two years.

One thing is that she overcharges the battery. One thing I learned from this forum is that it is best to keep/maintain the charge between 40%-80% of full charge for long battery life. This applies to camera batteries and computer batteries also. Likewise she kills computer batteries also. Not worth an argument. I explained once and let it go. Oh-well...

I mistakenly thought that deep cycling is best, but I learned from other forum members that 40%-80% is best for long battery life.

Interesting to note that the charger for my SL has an 80% charge indicator light, as well as a secondary charging light that blinks until fully charged. My three Monochrom batteries and my single SL battery all seem to be doing well. They don't self discharge or have not developed internal resistance and are now old batteries.

Good luck with your phone. The battery seems to be the weak spot.

Cal

 

[Ted Striker]

Ted,

My blogger gal replaced an Iphone 8 with a Iphone 10.

For her the camera upgrade was a big deal and a rather big jump.

She makes mucho income doing her blog, so pretty much the upgrade is a tax writeoff. She also kills phones. Pretty much they barely make it to two years.

One thing is that she overcharges the battery. One thing I learned from this forum is that it is best to keep/maintain the charge between 40%-80% of full charge for long battery life. This applies to camera batteries and computer batteries also. Likewise she kills computer batteries also. Not worth an argument. I explained once and let it go. Oh-well...

I mistakenly thought that deep cycling is best, but I learned from other forum members that 40%-80% is best for long battery life.

Interesting to note that the charger for my SL has an 80% charge indicator light, as well as a secondary charging light that blinks until fully charged. My three Monochrom batteries and my single SL battery all seem to be doing well. They don't self discharge or have not developed internal resistance and are now old batteries.

Good luck with your phone. The battery seems to be the weak spot.

Cal

iPhone batteries are easily replaced (by Apple) so I dont know why you'd not just get a new battery when needed. My wife recently replaced her battery (iPhone 6S) and it basically became a brand new phone. I'd much rather just budget a new battery every 2 years or so rather than spend any time trying to optimize charging. Her battery was at 60% health after nearly 4 years of random charging. Not too bad.

 

[Calzone]

The mobile phone has created a new types of photography - transient photography.

One of these is disposable images. Most phone images have a transient use. You make the image, text it to friends and, or relatives; they view it and within days or weeks it's never viewed again. There is no intent nor interest in any sort of permanent record. How often are selfies viewed one week after they are made?

Another is visual note-taking. A document or object of interest is photographed for the singe purpose of making a temporary record. Usually the record is short lived (days or weeks(. Eventually the record is irrelevant.

Very few consumers are going to use a stand-alone still camera for transient purposes.

The growth of instax photography is an offspring of transient photography. Everyone shares transient digital images. So it seems unique to share a transient printed image. Some may store these images in an organized fashion, but most of them are displayed casually and replaced by newer images. The older images are eventually lost or even discarded. A very small percent are stored in albums.

Image Quality Is Not a Priority

Many mentioned above the newest mobile phones create acceptable images in moderately bright light. I agree. In low light images are automatically filtered (noise reduction). Compared to a new still camera, the IQ is significantly lower. However, most consumers couldn't care less. The images are viewed on small displays which minimizes image degradation due to photon noise. The perceived image quality is sufficient. Convenience and image content are valued much more than rendering aesthetics.

It's 1960 All Over Again

In terms of consumer photography things haven't changed that much. The Kodak Brownie, Instamatic cameras didn't produce the IQ offered by a Leica M, or film SLRs. Friends and family members saw the prints and a significant number were stored in photo albums for occasional viewing. Convenience and cost were valued much more than rendering aesthetics. A relatively small number of consumers transitioned to cameras with more flexibility and IQ.

There Will Always Be A Still Camera Market

People who become interested in photography as a means of self-expression and documentation will eventually become more interested in IQ and flexibility at the expense of convenience. These people will become curious about still cameras. More people are making photographs today than ever before. The small percentage of those consumers who are candidates for entering the still camera market are significant.

Camera companies should market to the segment of mobile phone users who could become interested in non-transient photography. The ads should appeal to consumers' egos (you are an artist, so you deserve a real camera) and they should attack the weaknesses of phone cameras.

The total size of digital camera market will continue to shrink relative to phone cameras. The still camera market exists because of human nature which is essentially a constant. I think there will be enough new photographers to sustain still-camera brands who adapt and are flexible enough to become best of the best.

FUJIFILM recently introduced two hybrid instax cameras, the SQUARE SQ10 and SQ20. The SQ20 has an automatic collage mode and a selfie-mirror system for film or digital imaging. The digital image mode for these hybrids could be viewed as a gateway for those consumers who might transition into FUJFILM's basic APS-C product line. Then GAS kicks in.

Willie,

Thanks for this thoughtful post.

Know that I am not so great taking cell phone pictures. For me they are just awkward and are not the best.

That said, one year at Photoville they had a series of displays that promoted the use of cell phones as a form of a social documentary tool. The images were great, and I saw like you how the cell phone is kinda like its own medium.

In the past I was rather dismissive because as a printer IQ is of great importance to me, but now I have mucho respect.

Cal

 

[CliveC]

The problem with cameras these days is despite some including wifi, they are too much of a hassle to get shots off of and sharable. Many people, myself sometimes included, can't wait to have the shot transferred over to a computer, loaded and catalogued in Lightroom, edited, exported, and uploaded. The moment is lost.

What I did on a recent vacation was to take a smartphone shot and share first, then work with film/DSLR for a shot to be carefully edited later. Unfortunately when later came, I lacked the enthusiasm I had at the time so the RAWs/negatives were archived while the Facebook photos stayed.

 

[HHPhoto]

One of these is disposable images. Most phone images have a transient use. You make the image, text it to friends and, or relatives; they view it and within days or weeks it's never viewed again. There is no intent nor interest in any sort of permanent record. How often are selfies viewed one week after they are made?

Correct. Phone pictures are used as a communication tool, like words.

The growth of instax photography is an offspring of transient photography. Everyone shares transient digital images. So it seems unique to share a transient printed image. Some may store these images in an organized fashion, but most of them are displayed casually and replaced by newer images. The older images are eventually lost or even discarded. A very small percent are stored in albums.

Not correct. Lots of these pictures are stored. Fujifilm has created a whole range of additional products for storing and working with instax pictures. It is the main topic in their Fujifilm Wonder Stores as well. Lots of bloggers and youtubers are working with it and promoting it (e.g. scrapbooking). Fujifilm has created an complete ecosystem of new storing products. Lots of that happens outside the "hardcore photographer scene", 'normal' people doing that, especially females.

There Will Always Be A Still Camera Market

Correct.

People who become interested in photography as a means of self-expression and documentation will eventually become more interested in IQ and flexibility at the expense of convenience. These people will become curious about still cameras. More people are making photographs today than ever before. The small percentage of those consumers who are candidates for entering the still camera market are significant.

Correct.

Camera companies should market to the segment of mobile phone users who could become interested in non-transient photography. The ads should appeal to consumers' egos (you are an artist, so you deserve a real camera) and they should attack the weaknesses of phone cameras.

+1

The total size of digital camera market will continue to shrink relative to phone cameras. The still camera market exists because of human nature which is essentially a constant. I think there will be enough new photographers to sustain still-camera brands who adapt and are flexible enough to become best of the best.

+1

Cheers, Jan

 

[Prest_400]

The mobile phone has created a new types of photography - transient photography.

One of these is disposable images. Most phone images have a transient use. You make the image, text it to friends and, or relatives; they view it and within days or weeks it's never viewed again. There is no intent nor interest in any sort of permanent record. How often are selfies viewed one week after they are made?

Another is visual note-taking. A document or object of interest is photographed for the singe purpose of making a temporary record. Usually the record is short lived (days or weeks(. Eventually the record is irrelevant.

Basically that's it. I use it as a P&S and back it up, but the average consumer may not or it just goes to a cloud storage service that backs up automatically.

It's an interesting concept, of the "dark digital age" possibility. OTOH, stuff that's out posted on the web still lingers out there. It's easy to flick a couple of clicks and end up seeing posts from 10+ years ago that are still there.

One thing is that she overcharges the battery. One thing I learned from this forum is that it is best to keep/maintain the charge between 40%-80% of full charge for long battery life. This applies to camera batteries and computer batteries also. Likewise she kills computer batteries also. Not worth an argument. I explained once and let it go. Oh-well...

I mistakenly thought that deep cycling is best, but I learned from other forum members that 40%-80% is best for long battery life.

Cal

I have to read more about the Lithium batteries. Mine in the iPhone 6 was replaced just short of a year ago and I feel it has lost some performance. After this one goes the phone should be 5-6 years old. At the moment it works fine so I keep it going. Insert some rant about the closed system and parts replacement, such as complicated battery replacements and limited storage that's hard to upgrade.

Aside of some stuff like camera performance, most people don't really need a high end phone IMO. Specially those who just text.

 

[Calzone]

iPhone batteries are easily replaced (by Apple) so I dont know why you'd not just get a new battery when needed. My wife recently replaced her battery (iPhone 6S) and it basically became a brand new phone. I'd much rather just budget a new battery every 2 years or so rather than spend any time trying to optimize charging. Her battery was at 60% health after nearly 4 years of random charging. Not too bad.

Ted,

I would do what you suggest because it is practical, but "woman factor" is at play here. It does not help that my gal is a fierce woman who also has a PhD that worked with too many lawyers learning a culture of being adverserial. Academics are also trained to dig in and argue positions.

I'm a happy guy who dislikes arguing. I try to be helpful once, but then I move on.

In my life sometimes it is best not to get technical or scientific, and most times it is best not to talk fact. Happy-happy.

Cal

 

[Calzone]

The problem with cameras these days is despite some including wifi, they are too much of a hassle to get shots off of and sharable. Many people, myself sometimes included, can't wait to have the shot transferred over to a computer, loaded and catalogued in Lightroom, edited, exported, and uploaded. The moment is lost.

What I did on a recent vacation was to take a smartphone shot and share first, then work with film/DSLR for a shot to be carefully edited later. Unfortunately when later came, I lacked the enthusiasm I had at the time so the RAWs/negatives were archived while the Facebook photos stayed.

C,

I believe all this is worked out in the Iphone 10. My blogger gal does Instagram stories that are only posted for 24 hours. She uploads pics all the time to and from her phone.

The Leica CL also has some way of uploading JPEGs to her phone in a seamless manner. Seams like Leica designed this camera with bloggers in mind. An ap has to be downloaded. My gal transferes photos onto her phone on the street all the time.

These seem like the ideal tools that have "legs" for bloggers. My gal likes the CL because of the IQ, the speed, and the small package. She travels a lot and all over the planet. I think the dual slot allows for some advantage when changing over to a different communications system/network for those that have a bi-continental lifestyle. "Maggie" once explained it to me. As for an example if she goes to live in China she would install a second simm card and just set up the phone, then upon return to the U.S. just switch to the other card.

Cal

 

[Ted Striker]

I have to read more about the Lithium batteries. Mine in the iPhone 6 was replaced just short of a year ago and I feel it has lost some performance. After this one goes the phone should be 5-6 years old. At the moment it works fine so I keep it going. Insert some rant about the closed system and parts replacement, such as complicated battery replacements and limited storage that's hard to upgrade.

Aside of some stuff like camera performance, most people don't really need a high end phone IMO. Specially those who just text.

If you live near an Apple store, changing the battery takes about 30 minutes. Your phone will be fully powered then. In areas where there aren't Apple stores, there may be authorized service centers that do the same thing.

It's much more cost effective to replace the battery than buy a new phone. That said, the iPhone 6 is quite old now and the new screens are light years ahead of the 6. The same with the camera.

 

[jsrockit]

Yes, I see those kiosks at Walgreens and CVS. They are typically abandoned by the store staff because few if any requests for prints come in. These observations are clear and consistent.

Where do you live? This could explain part of it no?

 

[Ted Striker]

Where do you live? This could explain part of it no?

USA. I spend a lot of time in Chicago and never see anyone at the print kiosks in the stores there. I also spend a lot of time in Japan and see a lot of Fujifilm print kiosks at places like Yodobashi or Bic Camera. Everyone now and then I'll see someone use a kiosk but most of the time, they are empty of people. Certainly no lines or busy activity that indicates a large number of people printing. The kiosks are very quiet and mostly left alone. A lot of times the machines are powered off, probably to save energy.

 

[zuiko85]

PTP,

Many times in life I have stood alone. The persona I present here on RFF is not really me. In real life, even though I live in NYC surrounded by millions, I basically am a loner and always have been.

It is true that I have many posts here, but realize I only registered on RFF perhaps in 2007, so divide my amount of posting over a twelve year period and the amount of posting is not that high.

I am cursed that I stand out in a crowd. I also have this tendency/talent to bring out either the good or the bad in people, but I assure you that even though I can be very-very social, I am happiest when I'm alone.

Back when Ronald Ray-Gun was President, I worked at Los Alamos on one of his "Star Wars" projects, a Neutral Partical Beam Weapon prototype that was to be space based, to shoot down Intercontinental Ballistic Missles in their boost phase before they vaporize us.

I did a Henry David Thourogh and lived in a log cabin 47 miles from civilization in the Santa Fe National Forest. My cabin was so remote that I got no TV reception. The small community I lived in was just 80 mailboxes on State Highway 4. Most people do not understand or know peace like I do. Not many know what it is truely like to be alone.

Cal

Although living in NYC you sound you would relate more to Dick Proenneke, that fellow who at age 50 moved to a remote location in Alaska, built a cabin, and lived there alone until his 80's. His contact with the rest of world was an occasional visit by bush pilots using float planes to land on the nearby lake.