Canon: They see a grim future for digital camera market

[justins7]

For me the phone is great as a kind of visual diary, snapshots, and also for taking photos of documents, etc.

But I recently got back to shooting film and it's been fun. It really seems like two different things entirely (compared to phones). Just carrying a heavy metal analogue machine feels good. And so I understand why this is so attractive to the people in their 20's (I'm in my late 40's). It's digital ephemera versus concrete experience.

I started going to a film lab in Brooklyn and I am amazed that there are lines to get in! Everyone is under 30. The owners said so many stores closed, and now they're just soaking up new business. He said customers say that digital is "too boring." (And they offer seamless developing with scanning within a day; customers leave their film their until they drop off the next roll, and get images emailed to them.) So that's some kind of sign of solid interest in film that I can see.

 

[zuiko85]

Z,

I think my upbringing is very conflicted. I was born in 1958, and in the 1960 Census there were less than 238K Asians in the U.S. (about half were Chinese).

Racism was different. My dad only was one of 1428 Chinese who were allowed to become an Naturalized American citizen because of a loophole in the Chinese Exclusion act of 1885 because of his service in the U.S. Army during WWII. My dad was an illegal immigrant here for about 15 years prior to that.

I grew up during the Vietnam era looking like the enemy, but realize I grew up in the Long Island suburbs where we did not fit in. The first thing I learned in kindergarden was how to fight. By the third grade I was good at it.

So I learned to defend myself and was forced to deal with potential violence that could happen at any time. Add on top of that that I learned later in life that really I am a product of culture and my surroundings, and I one day discovered that I'm a white boy trapped in an Asian body with a very confused identity.

I don't speak Chinese, and the harsh reality is that I fill a grey inbetween area a place where I never feel I belong. Because I don't speak Chinese I'm kinda excommunicated. I only reinforced the Asian stereotype because it was a path of least resistance where I was allowed to succeed.

Tom Bro-Cough recently insulted Hispanics and makes a comparision to Asians that they should have the same values and work ethic. I too feel insulted as an Asian because his profiling of Asians I take exception to and are just as racist.

Not sure everyone can realize the limitations placed on groups of people that is everyday for some.

I was trained in art school as a studio artist. This involved creating skill, discipline, and expending mucho time pursuing the arts and one's craft. This is a very solitary thing to do, but very exhilerating. I find this type of artistic solitude very fulfilling, and it is so complete that I think I don't need much more to be happy. In a Welcome to Marwin manner I kinda create a safe place of my own invention where I basically live in a bubble and not the real world.

Having a relationship (been with my gal for over 20 years) means not being so selfish and involves compromise. A way to explain this is when traveling alone and shooting alone, verses trying to shoot in another country with your gal in tow. Sharing your life has its own merits.

Cal

Good heavens, I had no idea of your upbringing and background.
I'm a southern Indiana mutt. Mainly Scott-Irish with a fair bit of German and French. Born in 1949 and brought up by my parents (mainly mom) to believe only ignorant narrow minded fools were bigoted and prejudiced against others.
Only when I was older and living on my own did I realize it's all too easy to form these ideas within your own mind, even as you are repulsed by them. It has taken a concerted effort over the years to view people, not based on their nationality or race or background, but as individuals, each with their own unique personality.
Inevitably any assumptions I've made about persons I have just met have turned out 99% wrong.

 

[KM-25]

Huh....I make prints.

In fact I make so many that a few hours ago I just took delivery of a mural paper processor that will now allow me to go bigger than 40"x50".

Too bad about the negative-nasty here, it's a darn good group that does not deserve to put up with it.

 

[Canyongazer]

Went to a presentation by Keith Carter Sunday.
He pointed out that all the photo processes invented for taking, developing and printing photographs have been replaced by a newer one.

BUT, astonishingly enough,

All those previous processes be it gum bichromate, cyanotype, collodion, et cetera are still being practiced by some folks today in the 21st century.

No, not in great numbers, but the equipment, materials and interest survive, in some cases for more than 150 years.

Not much cause to worry about a supply of 400 ISO stock (now how much it might cost in the future is another question....🙄

btw, Keith Carter continues to inspire with his images and his words. Remarkable photographer.

 

[rscheffler]

The mobile phone has created a new types of photography - transient photography.

One of these is disposable images. Most phone images have a transient use. You make the image, text it to friends and, or relatives; they view it and within days or weeks it's never viewed again. There is no intent nor interest in any sort of permanent record. How often are selfies viewed one week after they are made?

Another is visual note-taking. A document or object of interest is photographed for the singe purpose of making a temporary record. Usually the record is short lived (days or weeks(. Eventually the record is irrelevant.

I generally agree with that you wrote. Regarding the above, also likely true, I've noticed prompts from Google (I use an Android phone) such as "remember this day" on a given calendar date, but a year or two or three in the past. IOW, some subtle suggestions to go look back through some old photos. Google also makes suggestions to archive photos of receipts, price tags, etc. that likely have outlived their usefulness. Given all the recent 'AI' talk, our cloud-based photo collections are likely to be increasingly AI curated for us.

This is part of what Canon and other manufacturers are up against in the general form of convenience provided by smartphones and their cameras. They missed that boat and probably can only snag onto it for specific types of photographers. Otherwise, yes, there will always be still photographers interested in decent cameras and lenses. The question is how large that market will be and how many companies (at what size) it will sustain? Also how costly it will become for new gear given the smaller, more niche volumes.

As for the question raised about printing... I can only refer to my local Costoc where I occasionally have prints made. it's the reason I got a Costco membership, because there are very, very few labs remaining. They seem pretty busy, which I hope continues.

 

[markbakovic]

Canon et al must've taken this view looong before announcing it publicly. "What will happen to their business"? Where was Olympus between the failure of OM to compete in the high end and micro 4/3? Making everybody's microscope. When Canon starts making science-oriented sensor packages (competing with the likes of SBIG, FLI and ZWO) they'll still be selling 90% of the same hardware, but to a different, wealthier, and recurrent customer base. If they wouldn't mind pushing into IR to help out those of us outside the US (*cough* export control sux *wheeze*) they'll have a ready market (who just quietly already bolt 50Ds to optical benches quite a bit). I assume that's what that crazy-high-ISO camera was about: a bit of water testing.

Also: small satellite networks with free-space optical communications are a big goal right now, and a digital SLR-and-lens fits the U-class form factor extremely well, so still being able to buy a Canon camera because the guts do double duty as a laser transceiver in the thing that makes your remote IoT work may well become a thing.

 

[RObert Budding]

It seems as if someone should design a cell phone that requires film.

 

[Ambro51]

Yes I have a friend who runs a “Real” camera store, He told me last Christmas was the first he remembers where there was No “camera” rush. He also told me he has a Lot of trouble keeping operating vintage film cameras in stock!

 

[Bill Clark]

Most phone images have a transient use.

My experience in business, mostly all images are treated the same way.

People demanded the files and I would follow up a year maybe a second time the second year to see if I could help? Thinking a print order. Almost every bride would say something like this, “I haven’t taken the time to look at the photographs yet. Thanks for the CD.” Usually the CD was stuck in one if their dresser drawers.

Very little attention span anymore. Kind of like the short instant replay. Or have any concern or care. Was it that way during film days? Probably a little like that but different because there was a little more time taken, the attention span longer, the value people placed on family history and the records the photographs would make.

During holidays back in the day we would get together. Family is important to us. My uncles would show their memories of the past year or so. One made movies the other slides. Any of you have the same thing happen?

 

[John Lawrence]

Yes I have a friend who runs a “Real” camera store, He told me last Christmas was the first he remembers where there was No “camera” rush. He also told me he has a Lot of trouble keeping operating vintage film cameras in stock!

If you're in the UK, then I think I know which camera store you're referring to. 🙂

Regarding the part I've highlighted in bold, I spoke to a dealer in film cameras only a few weeks back, and he confirmed what you say above. He was somewhat miffed that he'd had to work over Christmas, and said he was currently doing sixty (yup 60!) sales a week!

John

 

[traveler_101]

A huge percentage of the pictures on instagram is made with real cameras.
And there is a real boom of film photography pics and content posted on instagram. The revival of film is strongly supported by instagram. All film (related) manufacturers meanwhile are very active on instagram and using it for marketing purposes (e.g. Kodak has now about 325,000 followers on instagram, Polaroid only a bit less, Ilford more than 130,000).

Cheers, Jan

You're too optimistic. The medium is the message. In a way the source doesn't matter - instagram is a platform that reduces the image to an advert - "Advertisements for Myself" (Norman Mailer being ironic, but the irony is gone). On the other hand, I do accept your point that cameras are still viable: both digital and film photography will survive.

 

[HHPhoto]

You're too optimistic.

No, I am not.
Because I have talked to film companies who are very active on instagram. And they all have confirmed that their activities and marketing on instagram create new demand and new, additional customers for them.
It works, successfully. The companies know what they are doing.

Cheers, Jan

 

[Archiver]

My saturation point for cameras was reached a few years ago. My most recent cameras are the Panasonic LX10 and Sony RX0, which I bought because my Pana LX7 broke and I wanted the RX0 for work. Apart from that, I'm still shooting with things like the Sigma DP1 (nearly 11 years old), Leica M9 (almost 9) and the Fuji X100 (8 years?). When clients want still images, I break out the 5D Mark II, which is ten years old. Newer cameras have been bought for work, but personal cameras have been at a minimum in the last five years or so.

As far as film cameras go, mine are between 10 and 40something years old. Pentax ME, Leica M7, Contax T3, a few others. They do what I want, and I don't really want for much. No rush to buy new film cameras, that's for sure. Lenses, maybe, but not bodies.

Although my situation is common with people like us, for the average consumer who might own only one or two cameras, it's not. But the net result is the same. Most photography is now done with smartphones, and consumers get entry level DSLR's or mirrorless cameras if they really want. If this is what Canon is seeing, it seems real.